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KK w/Ace - river play

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r8ed

06-20-2006, 05:16 AM Post subject: KK w/Ace - river play

#1 (permalink)

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I chose to make a 1/2 pot blocking bet and fold to a raise. Better than check-calling or check-folding? Ingore the fact that I should have raised more preflop - my timer almost ran out because I was busy on other tables.

***** Hand History for Game 4554837858 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 20, 00:51:32 ET 2006
Table Table 108736 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: robthompson ( $67.54 )
Seat 2: Farinaccio ( $5.22 )
Seat 4: LCGRINDER ( $197.10 )
Seat 6: Hero ( $197 )
LCGRINDER posts small blind [$0.50].
Hero posts big blind [$1].
robthompson posts big blind + dead [$1.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ks Kh ]
>You have options at Table 108722 (No DP) Table!.
robthompson checks.
Farinaccio folds.
LCGRINDER folds.
Hero raises [$3].
>You have options at Table 96089 Table!.
robthompson calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, Qc, Ah ]
Hero checks.
>You have options at Table 108722 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 106803 Table!.
robthompson bets [$3].
Hero calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
>You have options at Table 106803 Table!.
Hero checks.
>You have options at Table 108722 (No DP) Table!.
robthompson bets [$9].
Hero calls [$9].
** Dealing River ** [ 7d ]
>You have options at Table 106803 Table!.
Hero bets [$15].

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dsaxton

06-20-2006, 06:44 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Check-fold the turn.

allLiving

06-20-2006, 07:15 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Check-fold the turn.

PocketFives - allLiving
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aislephive

06-20-2006, 07:48 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Check calling the river is much better than betting, you put in the same amount to see a showdown by check calling except you get worse hands to play with you. I'd probably check fold the turn without a read, or c/c turn and c/f river.

flotu

06-20-2006, 08:37 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Why did you check the flop? Gets complicated after that.

Irisheyes

06-20-2006, 09:17 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Raise more preflop.

Nah seriously, I bet the flop. Check fold the turn because it's not worth it. And if I make it to the rive like you did, I check fold that aswell. I can't see this being +EV at all. What are you hoping he threw out too bets with?

alias2211

06-20-2006, 01:46 PM

#7 (permalink)

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i like the flop check.

but he's probably not betting out on flop and turn w/o an ace. so check fold there.

the blocking bet would be ok if he hadn't already bet when checked to on the last 2 streets, if he had instead checked behind at least once. but in that case, you're much more likely to be betting for value on the end than using it as a blocking bet because more often than not you're ahead in that scenario.

as played, you have no idea what he has and you just made a dark tunnel bet. (harrington on hold'em vol. 2 pg. 31) don't do that.

In answer to your question... it depends...
alias2211.com poker

johnny_fish

06-20-2006, 03:59 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Raise more preflop, flop is fine, c/f turn. As played, c/f river.

Irisheyes

06-20-2006, 04:13 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Does everyone check this flop?
What if you are IP and checked to?

allLiving

06-20-2006, 07:43 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Always bet the flop, that's automatic.
Check fold the turn after he calls your flop bet.

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johnny_fish

06-20-2006, 07:57 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

Always bet the flop, that's automatic.

It's not. WA/WB situation -> c/c.

allLiving

06-20-2006, 08:00 PM

#12 (permalink)

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I guess If you play that incredibly tight you think your opponent always has an ace then surrender your hand...

That's a terrible way to think IMO. You always want to bet this flop to see where you're at. Checking always signals to your opponent that you're scared of that ace and are ready to fold, so you're letting your opponent with NOTHING bet you out of the pot.

Bet the flop here all the time.

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gabe

06-20-2006, 08:09 PM

#13 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

betting flop here sucks, checking is far superior

fold the turn though

allLiving

06-20-2006, 08:15 PM

#14 (permalink)

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IT'S 4-HANDED!!!! Bet flop you weak tight pussies...

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alias2211

06-20-2006, 08:38 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

Always bet the flop, that's automatic.
Check fold the turn after he calls your flop bet.

don't bet the flop.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

In answer to your question... it depends...
alias2211.com poker

gabe

06-20-2006, 08:52 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

IT'S 4-HANDED!!!! Bet flop you weak tight pussies...

betting flop headsup is giving away money

bluey

06-21-2006, 12:24 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Posts: 347

gabe whats your turn and river line if you check behind.

BR: $.1k
Goal 2: July 1 $10k

IIbeatsUU: lol u raised with that?

you mini raised, therefore you desereve whatever you get....

gabe

06-21-2006, 01:26 AM

#18 (permalink)

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usually call one bet but not two

but really depends on board and player and stuff

alias2211

06-21-2006, 02:55 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Hand #1

This one I could have - and should have - bet for value on the river.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($1335.75)
SB ($408)
BB ($2844.25)
UTG ($644.25)
MP ($664.25)
CO ($3345.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K

, K

.
UTG raises to $35, 2 folds, Hero raises to $120, 2 folds, UTG calls $85.

Flop: ($255) 6

, A

, Q

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($255) 4

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($255) 7

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $255

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
UTG has 8s 8c (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $255.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #2

Someone please tell me how I can get this final $12 out of the hand he's holding w/o checking the flop.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($937.50)
MP ($451)
CO ($118.70)
Button ($52.50)
SB ($465.10)
BB ($573.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

.
MP calls $4, 4 folds.

Flop: ($10) 7

, A

, 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Turn: ($10) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($10) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $12, MP calls $12.

Final Pot: $34

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and sevens).
MP has 5h 6h (two pair, sevens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $34.

-------------------------------------------------

Hand #3

I really thought I was in the clear on this one for a little value. I specifically remember thinking after this hand that almost NOBODY checks a

flopped ace through the river OOP like that. Player note for sure, just because he was actually capable of that patience.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($2566.75)
UTG ($1947.75)
Button ($769.75)
SB ($400.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, K

.
1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises to $30, SB calls $20.

Flop: ($60) 5

, 5

, A

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($60) 6

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($60) J

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $25, SB calls $25.

Final Pot: $110

Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Ks (two pair, kings and fives).
UTG doesn't show.
SB has 9s Ac (two pair, aces and fives).
Outcome: SB wins $110.

--------------------------------------------------

Hand #4

This one is a little different because of the PF reraise. He should have lead out flop if he had any hope of winning the hand. I probably fold to a river bet but he only had enough gusto for a turn bet, because if his check was AA or if he turned JJJ I would have found out on the river for sure: bet = he's got at least AK probably better, check = the pot is mine.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($4513)
Hero ($2426)
CO ($2242)
Button ($1176.50)
SB ($2855.50)
BB ($981)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K

, K

.
1 fold, Hero raises to $85, CO raises to $290, 3 folds, Hero calls $205.

Flop: ($615) A

, 2

, 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($615) J

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $350, Hero calls $350.

River: ($1315) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: $1315

Results in white below:
Hero has Ks Kh (one pair, kings).
CO has Kc 6c (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $1315.

-------------------------------------------
Hand #5

A very aggro player vs. a dry board. If I am to ever call a large river bet w/ this line, it is most likely under these circumstances.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($2956)
MP ($1008.25)
CO ($711.50)
Button ($845)
Hero ($1159.75)
BB ($2019.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, K

.
3 folds, Hero raises to $95, 1 fold, UTG calls $95.

Flop: ($200) A

, 7

, T

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: ($200) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $95, Hero calls $95.

River: ($390) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $390, Hero calls $390.

Final Pot: $1170

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Ks (one pair, kings).
UTG has Qh Kd (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $1170.

In answer to your question... it depends...
alias2211.com poker

aislephive

06-21-2006, 04:55 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

Is everybody weak-tight to you because they check a marginal made hand instead of betting it? I check flops with KK/QQ all the time when there is an ace on board, especially in position. It allows you to induce bluffs as well as get more value out of your hand. I'm not checking this flop because I'm going to check fold to a bet, I'm doing it for other reasons like pot control with a marginal hand. If you bet the flop you're usually only getting called by a better hand, and if you are ahead then they are drawing very slim. I'd bet 88 on an A22 flop rather than KK because 88 is so much more vulnerable and can't withstand any heat.

This line looks to a lot of players like a scared KK/QQ when you check the flop with an A on the board, but vs many players I'm very willing to call them down after I check the flop, not so much vs others. I also do the same line with an ace a lot, so it's not all that transparent.

Robert

06-21-2006, 09:20 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Location: Kokkedal, Denmark

Posts: 1,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias2211

Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

Always bet the flop, that's automatic.
Check fold the turn after he calls your flop bet.

don't bet the flop.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

best thread on FTR, ever

Toadstool

06-22-2006, 01:26 AM

#22 (permalink)

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Posts: 442

Toadstool will become famous soon enough

Ive been experimenting lately with hands such as this where if your flop bet gets called your generally beat, such as with 1010 on a Q 5 4 flop etc

Lately ive been c-betting a LOT less, in situations where if you get called you are likely beat. what is the point of betting? it may as well be a bluff if your are likely behind if you get called, and so why pay for this information? if opponant is behind he doesnt put any more money into the flop.

Another thing to notice is whether there are draws on board. If you have KK standard preflop play your OOP HU

Flop is A 9 10 with 2 spades, you check (because there is not really much value to betting here and this isnt a situation where you want to play a big pot) if the opponant checks behind he very rarely has an ace - he would bet here to protect against draws.

Havent really done a good job of explaining here

dsaxton

06-22-2006, 03:02 AM

#23 (permalink)

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I've changed my mind. Go all-in on the flop. Anything less is weak tight.

gabe

06-22-2006, 05:11 AM

#24 (permalink)

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aislephive

06-22-2006, 06:19 AM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Toadstool

I would bet the flop with TT on a Q45 board though, your hand is still relatively vulnerable to overcards and likely good anyways.

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KK w/Ace - river play

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