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KK with position faces nuclear option on the river

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Seasider

06-07-2006, 02:06 PM Post subject: KK with position faces nuclear option on the river

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Bangor UK

Posts: 563

I had literally just sat down so PT stats had not popped up yet (I'll put them in white at the end of the post). I was tempted to call this because it looked like a busted flush however with only $11 invested and in the absence of a read I decided folding was the best option. The A on the turn was a strange card, it is less likley he has the ace and really it probably just leaves the board the same, but most players would show some aggression when they hit their trips. Would potting the turn have been a better line? My $6 was really an attempt to block the move he ended up pulling on the river. If checked to me on the river I would probably have checked through

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($11)
BB ($39.05)
UTG ($48.70)
Hero ($48.75)
Button ($9)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K

, K

.
UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, UTG calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.75) 3

, A

, 5

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3, UTG calls $3.

Turn: ($10.75) A

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $6, UTG calls $6.

River: ($22.75) 8

(2 players)
UTG bets $37.7 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $60.45

Results in white below:
UTG doesn't show.
Outcome: UTG wins $60.45.

VP$IP 39 PFR% 6 Aggression factor 0.75 Hands played with 33 I felt a lot better in folding when I saw that aggression stat!

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mcatdog

06-07-2006, 02:09 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

Check behind on the turn. If he's a decent player he probably has a full house and puts you on an ace.

alias2211

06-07-2006, 02:42 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: U, S and A!!!

Posts: 469

wow 39/6, that is hardly any aggression and then he overbets the river all in after two check/calls? suspect. there are much better spots for you to play for stacks w/ KK. if you had pushed yourself w/ a read that would be one thing but you really have to fold there in this spot.

In answer to your question... it depends...
alias2211.com poker

Robert

06-07-2006, 03:29 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Kokkedal, Denmark

Posts: 1,109

The river is an easy fold for me. I mostly check the turn behind too, because I almost always see another ace in this spot, and opp is not folding trips even with a weak kicker.
As for the flop, I often check behind in this spot, the flushdraw out there makes a flop-cbet legitimate though.

dsaxton

06-07-2006, 03:53 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

I often check the flop. He rarely calls without an ace, but may make loose calls on later streets if you show weakness, and you have the K of spades.

As played, check behind on the turn. River is an easy fold.

Seasider

06-07-2006, 04:22 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Bangor UK

Posts: 563

Generally i'm c-betting at flops with an A on them in position against 1-2 opps especially if I know they are tight and just calling raises to set hunt or AK etc. I take down a lot of $4-6 pots like this.

I think this guy really did have a monster, possibly he had a look with A3/A5 suited to look for flush/straight had AK or hung on with 88 putting me on AK or something ?? To be honest I think he had at least a FH by the river.

Just a funny play from him he clearly WANTS me to think its a bluff and call, I have used this myself sometimes but mainly on weekend nights at action filled tables.

If it adds anything to the read he left a few hands after, either he was relieved to have escaped the bluff and pocketed the $$ or he was pissed off his monsters wern't getting paid. I hope it was the latter! Still happy with my fold though

Lukie

06-07-2006, 05:37 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

good advice

gabe

06-07-2006, 06:12 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

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Location: trying to live

Posts: 7,964

gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

check flop

alias2211

06-07-2006, 06:16 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: U, S and A!!!

Posts: 469

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

good advice

this is actually better advice when the flop isn't so coordinated. here, you might get called by an ace, but you also might get called by flush draw and maybe a hand w/ a 2 or 4. refer to my favorite topic of all time for a detailed discussion:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=21766

in this hand i probably bet the flop, since a check/raise would tell me to get lost (given his stats). i think an Ace is less likely to check/call w/ that board than it is to check/raise. maybe flopped two pair can check/call (even more reason to check behind turn).

In answer to your question... it depends...
alias2211.com poker

boost

06-07-2006, 08:15 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Chicago

Posts: 706

a check riase tells you to get lost, but what does a cold call tell you? as we can see, absolutely nothing. but as played on the flop you def arent betting the turn, because it accomplishes nothing of value ( that I can see)

Lukie

06-07-2006, 08:22 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

Quote:

Originally Posted by alias2211

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

good advice

I think *sometimes* checking this flop is a good play. A hand with a 2 or 4 is unlikely, and if he happens to catch a 5th spade, we have the nut redraw. Given that we bet the flop in this example, a turn check seems pretty obvious to me.

dsaxton

06-07-2006, 09:11 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

You're almost always against a pair of aces when he calls a bet on the flop. If you check instead, your opponent then has an opportunity to call with 7-7 - Q-Q, or any other random card he pairs on a later street. Protecting your hand is not a huge concern, since the pot is small. I think it's more important to try to extract more value.

Assuming it's important to protect the pot against a draw (which it isn't), it's highly improbable that your opponent has precisely two spades in his hand, anyways. Plus, with the K of spades, your opponent would then have to both hit a third spade, and avoid a fourth. Overall, it makes no sense to worry about him having a flush draw, and a straight draw is highly unlikely given that he called a raise preflop.

Seasider

06-08-2006, 04:55 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Bangor UK

Posts: 563

Cheers for all replies.

I think betting this flop in that position is OK especiallyheads up and when checked to me. I am ahead of a whole range of hands he could be calling with and assuming he doesn't have the A it is just as scary for him as me! I think I should of check folded from then on I think.

If we check the flop so to extract loose calls from QQ JJ etc are we not faced with the problem of distinguishing them from a weak ace? I'd rather make a decision about my hand on the flop.

I's clearly not a hand i'm losing a lot of $$ on, but I think I threw away 6 of them unnecessarily in this example.

johnny_fish

06-08-2006, 05:30 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

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Posts: 2,186

Quote:

If we check the flop so to extract loose calls from QQ JJ etc are we not faced with the problem of distinguishing them from a weak ace?

No.

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1.00/$2.00
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $244.73
UTG+1: $37.30
Hero: $371.04
Button: $405.85
SB: $118.40
BB: $263.44

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K

UTG calls, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero raises to $15, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: T

($35, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 7

($35, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $6, Hero calls.

River: T

($47, 2 players)
UTG+1 is all-in $16.3, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $79.6
UTG+1 shows Js Qs

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1.00/$2.00
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $443.83
CO: $181.30
Button: $299.85
Hero: $388.94
BB: $193.00

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K

UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises to $9, BB calls, UTG folds.

Flop: 9

($21, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $12, Hero calls.

Turn: 7

($45, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: Q

($45, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $20, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $85
BB shows 6d 8d
Hero shows Kh Kd

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1.00/$2.00
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $338.40
UTG+1: $195.00
CO: $195.33
Button: $194.00
Hero: $592.59
BB: $224.60

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with J

4 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB calls.

Flop: 6

($13, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $10, Hero calls.

Turn: K

($33, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: A

($33, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $26, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $26 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $33
BB shows 4s 3s

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KK with position faces nuclear option on the river

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