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KK, multiway.. push or fold flop?

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griffey24

07-30-2007, 12:57 AM Post subject: KK, multiway.. push or fold flop?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

-button isn't very good, so i'm likely ahead of him here
-no reads on BB, this is like his 5th hand at the table
-is this a standard fold/push over?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $206.47
UTG+1: $200.95
CO: $98.90
Button: $161.20
SB: $186.56
BB: $167.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with

Hero raises to $8, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop:

($33, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $24, CO folds, Button calls, BB raises to $68, Hero ??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

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|~|ypermegachi

07-30-2007, 01:13 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

push and spike a K on the river.

Vi-Zer0Skill

07-30-2007, 03:45 AM

#3 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,742

BB's range: (two pair, set, straight, FD, pair+draw)
Button's range: (small overpair, A-x[pair on flop], set, straight)

Against BB's range...

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

61,380 games 0.005 secs 12,276,000 games/sec

Board: 2c 3c 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.575% 26.14% 01.08% 16042 660.00 { KhKs }
Hand 1: 65.425% 71.71% 01.08% 44018 660.00 { TT-99, 44-22, AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac8c, A5s, KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, 65s, 54s, 43s, A5o, 65o, 54o }

---

you are slightly better than a 2:1 underdog. Add to this the possibility that Button could be trapping and i think this is a fold.

You could also call on the flop and get AI on the turn if:
1). Button doesn't call
2). Turn card is not an Ace, 4, 3, 2, 6, or Club.

However, that is probably like 18 cards though so the fact that the turn would be such a tricky spot makes me think folding on the flop would be best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Numbr2intheWorld

07-30-2007, 05:33 AM

#4 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 3,561

Numbr2intheWorld will become famous soon enough

I think it's pretty close but since they are both like 75 BB it makes it an easier push.

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bode

07-30-2007, 10:54 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

bode is an unknown quantity at this point

Vi, why discount 55-88? I think an aggro 1/2 villain is reraising 88 on this board against a standard c-bet often enough also. I agree with Massimo that 75bbs stacks make this a push.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

griffey24

07-30-2007, 12:16 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

Vi, why discount 55-88? I think an aggro 1/2 villain is reraising 88 on this board against a standard c-bet often enough also. I agree with Massimo that 75bbs stacks make this a push.

I didn't really think this looked like a 'standard c-bet'. I thought I showed a lot of strength with my hand, raising UTG and then betting hard OOP into 3 other players. I don't think many people would bet AKo, on this board, into this many players?

Given the strength I thought I was showing, I agree mostly with Vi's range, in that the worst hand that BB might have is the nut flush draw which I'm flipping with.

Maybe I'm wrong in narrowing his range, based on the strength that I THINK I'm conveying.

oh and not sure if this makes it more or less of a push, but this is a 1/2 pounds game, so generally plays more like 2/4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

noble007

07-30-2007, 01:02 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: London

Posts: 531

I fold without reads on villian...
This is a situation where I generally will fold KK or AA on flop.
With 3 callers & people calling and check raising you on a low co-ordinated flop, 1 pair is soooo rarely the best hand.
As you said you have shown a lot of strength the way you you played & I don't see 88 or what have you making a move in this spot.
I dont see a lot of flush draws/1 pair hands doing this - I really think you're smoked or up against 13 outs min.

larsmars

07-30-2007, 04:13 PM

#8 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Norway

Posts: 101

Push.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

True. However, if one of them is bad and the other is unknown, and neither has a full stack, I wouldn't give them credit for figuring this out. With all the money allready in the pot I would say pushing is slightly +EV.

Geanosssss

07-30-2007, 07:05 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2007

Posts: 403

Fold. BB calls pre-flop with 22,33,44 and A5. And check-raises the flop with a set or straight. Its tough but youve only got one pair and your opponents play makes sense, it looks like he has a big hand here (bigger than yours). And you have the button to worry about.

I hate playing in fear of sets and flopped straights but sometimes you have to accept it, grind your teeth and fold.

crazycrazy

07-30-2007, 11:26 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 240

imo this is exactly the situation in which ur going to stack someone with ur over pair... 3 or 4 ppl cold calling, someone has to turn sometihng... hard to judge this without knowing ur image and his image.... dunno why i have the feeling he has 67 flsuh+gutshot combo draw hehe.. that his raise makes me think he wants u to fold...but i dont play 200nl so i cant say....

sauce123

07-30-2007, 11:32 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Dizzy

Posts: 2,405

this is very close imo. i think its a fold but im not sure how these games play exactly

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

griffey24

07-31-2007, 02:51 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

this is very close imo. i think its a fold but im not sure how these games play exactly

I agree that this is a close spot, probably marginal EV either way.

As it turns out, I folded.

Button then PUSHED over BB's raise. So i'm thinking "Phew.. glad I folded"

BB calls.

Button has 66 (gross lol.. mind you if I called/pushed, he prob drops this)
BB has Ac8c for the nut flush draw, as expected

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

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KK, multiway.. push or fold flop?

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