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mixchange
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11-15-2008, 11:15 PM
Post subject: KK 4bet pot vs. reg
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($207.15)
Button ($381)
SB ($220.90)
BB ($338.40)
Hero (UTG) ($206)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , K
Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, Button calls $6, SB raises to $24, 1 fold, Hero raises to $62, 1 fold, SB calls $38
Flop: ($132) 6 , A, Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($132) 2 (2 players)
SB bets $25, Hero calls $25
River: ($182) 10 (2 players)
SB bets $133.90 (All-In),
Reg is 22/16 with 6% 3bet
Totally baffled by what he'd flat here.. but I'm guessing an 88-JJ type hand.
I meant $72 pre, so that is mistake #1 in the hand.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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your 4 bet size is fine, probably better than 72 if you are going to be 4 bet bluffing ever. This is definantly a shitty spot and I think you have to stack off because when you 4 bet to this size you are threatening there stack by committing yourself to the pot. For this to be effective you have to be shoving in your value hands and folding your air hands. Shove flop or check/call down.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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gametight
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 494
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cant think of an ace he could have here...
unless hes reall bad and could have AA.
I call and take a note
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Well, his hand looks like a total bluff but somehow i doubt he's floating anything preflop so it would have to be JJ (but maybe that makes up the majority of his preflop calling range so that may be ok). What was his river timing? If he shoved almost instantly it would seem more like a bluff, made hands would most likely have to mull over that bad river card, and TT would at least have to pause to make sure they just made a set.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Well, his hand looks like a total bluff but somehow i doubt he's floating anything preflop so it would have to be JJ (but maybe that makes up the majority of his preflop calling range so that may be ok). What was his river timing? If he shoved almost instantly it would seem more like a bluff, made hands would most likely have to mull over that bad river card, and TT would at least have to pause to make sure they just made a set.
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why do you think a relatively tight 3-bettor is 1) 3-betting his utg raise from sb w/JJ and 2) calling his 4-bet oop when mix is a pretty tight player?
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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assuming hes at least competent, he doesnt have AA/QQ here because he's betting the turn bigger. the only hands i can see him having are TT/JJ/KK, and even though we have the other 2 Kings, i think you see this more often than the other 2. Either way, with the money in the pot im calling here pretty much always. i do agree if hes shipping the river pretty fast im more happy to call, but still calling no matter what.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I think he has AA/QQ/AQ (maybe AK, unlikely AT/TT), the turn bet is just to sucker you in (ie he really wants all your money but he's afraid you'll fold).. I don't think it's a bluff because he's a reg and the board hit a lot of hands in premium range. Also if I look at the numerics of a tight range there are almost no hands you beat besides JJ.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Well, his hand looks like a total bluff but somehow i doubt he's floating anything preflop so it would have to be JJ (but maybe that makes up the majority of his preflop calling range so that may be ok). What was his river timing? If he shoved almost instantly it would seem more like a bluff, made hands would most likely have to mull over that bad river card, and TT would at least have to pause to make sure they just made a set.
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why do you think a relatively tight 3-bettor is 1) 3-betting his utg raise from sb w/JJ and 2) calling his 4-bet oop when mix is a pretty tight player? |
Why do you not think this is possible, if not likely? If this guy played perfectly preflop he probably wouldn't be at 1/2. I'd put JJ as the most likely hand he could have from the preflop action, but thats really partially blind speculation of how people play in general.
Anyways, if this guy is bluffing it's a pretty elaborate one (a small info bet on turn to set up a river bluff). So if he's not the type to set up a bluff, or bluff in 4-bet pots at all, or turn JJ into a bluff, this discussion is stupid. I personally hate discussing hands when we have so little information on a player because poker isn't played in the (for lack of a better word) "general." Any hand discussion that makes us think other wise is probably just bad for our games.
Basically what i'm saying is keep in mind when reading these posts that my advice is about how to play against a unknown with a 6% 3-bet. But i'm hoping you never play a session where all you can surmise about an opponent after so many hands is a poker tracker stat.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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your 4bet size is too big not too small, get real homie
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I think if button somehow flatted this 4bet, then I'd always expect SB to jam AA pre. But given that its just him and hero, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone flatting AA here sometimes if they thought you were just on air re-stealing or something. For the same reasons I'd expect AQ might flat sometimes too pre. I've also seen people flat QQ here in hopes of getting it in on an non A/K flop.
I like how it's played up till river, and fold river now I'd imagine.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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Am I too simplistic to think that he is on a pure bluff less than 10 percent of the time? I would think based on the information available that he has AA or QQ about 80 percent of the time...sometimes AQ and a small chance to have AK.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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I think you're beat nearly every time here. Usually, his bet sizing is bad because he is bad, not because he's on a bluff.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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will: how is 6% tight 3betting? I believe the HEM stats had this in optimal range
river shove was a very brief pause then shove
I just don't see people bluffing in 4bet pots as much... still confused at all the 4bet flatting i'm running into lately!
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