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dsaxton
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05-26-2006, 08:26 PM
Post subject: A-K suited.
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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This is a hand from yesterday I found.
Opponent unknown. Turn play?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($238.50)
BB ($128.20)
Preflop: Hero is Button with K , A. Hero posts a blind of $2.
BB calls $1, Hero (poster) raises to $8, BB calls $6.
Flop: ($16) 9, 8, A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB calls $10.
Turn: ($36) Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $18, BB raises to $52, Hero ?
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zaaaaaak
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 69
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I push with a solid read.
But the majority of the time, I'm folding this.
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fal04: there's not too many hands i won't play for a quarter if i'm feeling it
fal04: i'll play 7-2 off if i feel it
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Heads up that is real tough to swallow. Without a read, I fold. I think if you call you are trying to hit your flush maybe with a couple K's alive. Lucky if you have 12 outs, I fold.
AQ or JT with a 20% chance he is pushing air. I assume he doesn't have a read on you either? No reason to bluff here.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
AQ or JT with a 20% chance he is pushing air. I assume he doesn't have a read on you either? No reason to bluff here.
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Bluff the guy who reraised? How is this a bluff? No way I'm folding this hand. You have too many outs against so many hands and for all you know you're leading to someone making a play or overvaluing his hand.
All my chips are in the middle here no matter what my read is.
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Family Cruise IMO
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Hero's getting 3:1 on that raise. Is that good enough to call and value bet if villain checks the river? Only the Qd is a suspect out.
Looking at stack sizes, I guess not. Damn, that sucks. The raise seems carefully calibrated to screw over your draw. Of course if you thought he was paying off a made flush a high percentage of the time on the river (he's close to pot-committed already), this might be callable.
With no read this really seems like a big fat grey area. Seeing as he's unknown and this is heads up, you could argue for a push or a call... it's hard to see a fold unless you know for sure he's tight, which you don't.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Hmm...just rethought the hand I can see folding this with a read. It's still damn tough to get away from but I take back the 'just get the chips in the middle all the time part'. Depends on the skill level of the table I guess.
Tough hand.
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Family Cruise IMO
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Call, push if you hit a K or  ; fold otherwise seems +EV to me.
Your turn bet seems a bit too low btw.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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im not being results oriented, check the turn
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Stop making these 1/2 pot turn bets, it's difficult to say if villain is making a play off of your weak bet or he has a hand. Folding is out of the question, you need to at least call. I think I shove here though with a ton of outs if I'm behind.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Heads up, I think my TPTK is g00t here. I think most likely villain has a weaker ace or KQ.
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johnnyBuz
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philly, Pa
Posts: 462
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
Heads up, I think my TPTK is g00t here. I think most likely villain has a weaker ace or KQ.
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Is AQ not a possibility, making him pay for the draw?
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Liter of cola.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Stop making these 1/2 pot turn bets
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Why? I'm pretty sure I want him to call when I have top pair, top kicker with the nut flush draw. What is the point of betting big? You seem to be implying that I need to make these massive bets "for information." He isn't going to make some crazy check-raise with one pair unless he's a complete maniac. He's just going to call me down, which is what I want. Is there some other reason I need to be hammering the pot?
Anyways, it was about twice my flop bet, which is pretty standard.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Stop making these 1/2 pot turn bets
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Why? I'm pretty sure I want him to call when I have top pair, top kicker with the nut flush draw. What is the point of betting big? You seem to be implying that I need to make these massive bets "for information." He isn't going to make some crazy check-raise with one pair unless he's a complete maniac. He's just going to call me down, which is what I want. Is there some other reason I need to be hammering the pot?
Anyways, it was about twice my flop bet, which is pretty standard. |
Players simply don't respect half pot sized bets in cash games, that's all there is to it. By betting around 2/3 pot it makes it much more expensive for him to raise and if he does indeed raise I'd be pretty confident I was behind. Betting 2/3 on the turn also defines his hand based on his river action. If he leads a blank river I can definitely fold AK here, and if he checks you can make a value bet or check behind. But half pot will put you on a lot of tricky spots where you don't know how good your hand is. 1/2 pot OOP is fine, but in position bet bigger for sure.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Stop making these 1/2 pot turn bets
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Why? I'm pretty sure I want him to call when I have top pair, top kicker with the nut flush draw. What is the point of betting big? You seem to be implying that I need to make these massive bets "for information." He isn't going to make some crazy check-raise with one pair unless he's a complete maniac. He's just going to call me down, which is what I want. Is there some other reason I need to be hammering the pot?
Anyways, it was about twice my flop bet, which is pretty standard. |
betting bigger in this spot is good because when opponent raises a bet closer to potsize, you know they have a good hand. 1/2 pot bet is about the worst size you can pick; at least if you bet 1/3 the raise wouldn't be too large to call.
seriously though check the turn
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
seriously though check the turn
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Why?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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because he has a sweet hand that would suck if he got raised off of it. maybe bet if it was a black deuce, but it completed the most likely draw out there (JT)
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
because he has a sweet hand that would suck if he got raised off of it. maybe bet if it was a black deuce, but it completed the most likely draw out there (JT)
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Ya OK very good.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
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Checking the turn seems pretty bad. He's going to call a turn bet with tons of hands that he's almost drawing dead with. Not allowing him to do this is a mistake.
The only hand I'm worried about is J-T, which isn't that likely given his wide calling range with this flop.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Checking the turn seems pretty bad.
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HAHAHAAAAAAAA
seriously man, stop posting such bad advice
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Checking the turn seems pretty bad.
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HAHAHAAAAAAAA
seriously man, stop posting such bad advice |
Ok, so you have top pair, top kicker with the nut flush draw, and you think checking behind is good just because you're afraid of getting raised by exactly one hand? This is hilariously dumb.
I'll stop posting bad advice as soon as you do.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Ok, so you have top pair, top kicker with the nut flush draw, and you think checking behind is good just because you're afraid of getting raised by exactly one hand?
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you have alot to learn about poker
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I'll stop posting bad advice as soon as you do.
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LOL
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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heads up sit n go on stars, I rail.
y/n/m?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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HU sngs suck because the blinds go up.
ill move money to prima maybe and we can do 50/100 NL HU
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Gabe is just crying because I made fun of his "big pots" thread.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Hmm....I'm a huge fan of all your posts Gabe, but I think you might be a bit stubborn in this situation. In this case I don't think there's one right way to play this. I know a lot of people that would play this hand like a set and simply not fold this on the flop or turn and payoff a better hand (Super System Metagame style). Another reason I think check/calling the turn isn't necessarily the best play is that you don't know where you're at when a non diamond comes and you may end up folding the best hand.
Betting the turn lets DSaxton know that his TPTK isn't good. He wouldn't know that if he check called.
But then again I see your viewpoint as well as seeing a cheaper river has its advantages.
Anyway, all that just to say that I think there's an argument for both cases. But you obviously have a lot more cash game experience than both of us, so I bow down to you  .
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Family Cruise IMO
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Werddown
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06-02-2006, 04:00 AM
Post subject: Re: A-K suited.
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#26 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 302
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This looks like how somoene would play a set of 8s or 9s to me.. If he had AQ on the flop I think he raises you because of the flush draw... and to see if hes outkicked or not
You have 9 outs to beat the set along with 3 kings if he has AQ..
Being as he only has $58 or so left after his raise, I think I find a fold here... You arent going to get him off the hand by pushing, and he doesnt have enough left in his stack to pay you off if you hit the flush.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Gabe is just crying because I made fun of his "big pots" thread.
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crying? im trying not to let you negatively influence all the friends i have at FTR with bad advice. checking the turn is not bad or hilariously dumb.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
Betting the turn lets DSaxton know that his TPTK isn't good. He wouldn't know that if he check called.
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yea, but if TP isn't good, he wants to get to the river so he has a chance for a flush
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ark4748
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06-02-2006, 04:41 AM
Post subject: Re: A-K suited.
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#28 (permalink)
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 85
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werddown
This looks like how somoene would play a set of 8s or 9s to me.. If he had AQ on the flop I think he raises you because of the flush draw... and to see if hes outkicked or not
You have 9 outs to beat the set along with 3 kings if he has AQ..
Being as he only has $58 or so left after his raise, I think I find a fold here... You arent going to get him off the hand by pushing, and he doesnt have enough left in his stack to pay you off if you hit the flush.
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I was thinking the same thing. Why are we only worried about JT?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Is this HH messed up or something? Stars has backwards blinds where the BB is the button. This would make sense if 'BB' was written 'SB'
amirite?
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Silly String
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06-02-2006, 02:32 PM
Post subject: Re: A-K suited.
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#30 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werddown
Being as he only has $58 or so left after his raise, I think I find a fold here... You arent going to get him off the hand by pushing, and he doesnt have enough left in his stack to pay you off if you hit the flush.
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I agree, hence my first post. I disagree with your reasoning. I think only JT checks that flop. I believe a set CR's or bets out a flop with 2 diamonds.
What I wasn't thinking about is playing heads up changes things a little:
1) I guess he might slow play a flopped set.
2) He may be more likely than 20% to be on air when heads up.
Moral of the story = Short Stacks suxorz.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
because he has a sweet hand that would suck if he got raised off of it. maybe bet if it was a black deuce, but it completed the most likely draw out there (JT)
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And on top of that, if you don't improve on the river the opponent will call a value bet from your tptk with a wide range of hands. Your check on the turn sets up a beautiful value bet.
If it was deeper stacks I would bet again for two reasons - 1 is because you're probably ahead. 2 - is to build a bigger pot when you improve. That way if he raises, its going to have to be pretty damn big to get you out.
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He who drinks beer sleeps well.
He who sleeps well cannot sin.
He who does not sin goes to Heaven.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp
If it was deeper stacks I would bet again for two reasons - 1 is because you're probably ahead. 2 - is to build a bigger pot when you improve. That way if he raises, its going to have to be pretty damn big to get you out.
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agreed
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