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kmind
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07-19-2008, 08:02 AM
Post subject: K high ever good vs. aggro player?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Villain was very aggressive to the point he had 3bet every one of my opens on the button except one that he folded and had open his buttons almost everytime. I 3bet him twice so far and he folded once. I had also reraised one of his cbets with air and he folded. That said, it was still early in the match. Probably only like 75 hands played at this point. I obviously don't give his cbet any credit (he did fail to cbet twice on wet boards) but raising seems like he'll most likely only continue with a 9 so I call with what I think is the best hand. After turn I don't think I can do anything but fold as his range seems to be beating me and I doubt he can fold now given stack sizes.
$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
2 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
Hero ($57.15)
BB ($50.05)
Pre-flop: ($0.75, 2 players) Hero is BTN  
Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $4.50, Hero calls $3
Flop:    ($9, 2 players)
BB bets $7, Hero calls $7
Turn:  ($23, 2 players)
BB bets $18, Hero folds
Final Pot: $23
BB wins $40.50 ( won $11 )
Hero lost -$11.50
1. I'm sure there is a line I can use that's better?
2. What kind of adjustments should I be making. I think there are threads about it but I'm sure 4betting more and calling with more hands that have good immediate equity vs. his range as opposed to hands with implied odds help. Maybe calling a lot preflop and c/r some dryish boards.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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id go ahead and 4 bet this, hes fos so often and kq is way ahead of his frequent 3 betting range. As played id just fold the turn and be unhappy about it. Against this sort of player start 4 betting alot lighter but play our big hands slow and give him enough rope to hang himself. however id avoid calling too much oop with marginal hands and checkraising on dry boards as youll end up getting in a spew war against him and thats never good.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Why are we 4-betting if we're way ahead of his 3 bet range?
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Just playing to improve.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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because we'll wiff 1 of every 3 flops and well be oop without the initative which will result in us having to fold alot when we have the best hand postflop, i.e. right here. Im not saying 4 betting is the optimal line all the time vs this guy with kq but to balance our 3 bet calling and 4 bet ranges i think in this instance its fine, specially as we havnt 4 bet him yet in the match.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I don't like a 4bet here with KQo, it might be ahead of his 3bet range but certainly not his 5 bet range.
As played I'd fold the turn and start to think about how to adjust against this guy if you aren't hitting boards. Raising his cbet here might be +EV, i mean its going to look bluffy but he should be folding a lot of his air. I don't think I'd try to get K high to showdown very often...
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Don't fourbet KQ, I'd just fold the flop. If someone is threebetting you a shitload I'm inclined to 4bet, but someone who is cbetting that much we should ofc call with most of our range and raise his cbets to death. I don't like this spot though to raise, i just dump it on the flop.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
because we'll wiff 1 of every 3 flops and well be oop without the initative which will result in us having to fold alot when we have the best hand postflop, i.e. right here. Im not saying 4 betting is the optimal line all the time vs this guy with kq but to balance our 3 bet calling and 4 bet ranges i think in this instance its fine, specially as we havnt 4 bet him yet in the match.
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You're overestimating the value of initiative. In this hand I think we should fold flop (just not a good flop to get him to fold much of his range), but a lot of flops we miss we're in good position to take them off him anyway.
4-betting KQo here is basically a bluff (we're shit v's his calling/5-betting range) so why are we turning a hand thats ahead of his range into a bluff? 4-bet a polarised range v's this guy.
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Just playing to improve.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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See I tend to think like Jeff here. IMO, our range is ahead of his on the flop, so why would we just fold there?
Danny - would you say fold>raising>calling or fold>calling>raising?
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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This guy 2 barrels always here and we have 6 outs to improve.
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Just playing to improve.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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I think you give him too much credit. Most players at the lower/micro stakes who are "better" will see a good cbetting flop and bet air but doesn't understand both ranges and scare cards and will just play their hand straight up on turn/river.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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What makes you think this guy is a "better" player, and not just an aggro bet monkey?
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Just playing to improve.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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meh i see your points guys, ive officially changed my viewpoint to just calling and raising his c bets a ton, i think 4 betting with a polarised range is better than what i suggested.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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4-betting pre is atrocious
flop is a very interesting spot. I can see raising and getting it in, folding, and calling all as viable options.
Calling is probably fairly minus ev without a lot of plans for later streets though, as it really depends on what you think of him and what you think you can get away with.
Turn is a clear fold. Sure your hand may be good, but its not the river yet, so u are effectively getting way worse pot odds to look him up.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Any thoughts on the open raising when we're very likely to be 3bet? This seems to be the most important part of the hand to me.
Are we happy to be calling the $4.50 and playing post. Should we consider raising less pre so his 3bet is smaller, or limp/raising pre so we have initiative?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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LOL did you guys see that this guy 3-bet his button opens EVERY time but one??? 4-betting and getting it in can't possibly be -EV against someone whose 3-betting range is that wide, I could do the math but I shouldn't need to. Only question is whether 4-betting or calling is more +EV.
You guys are definitely underestimating the value of just picking up the money in the pot preflop, which will probably happen 80% of the time, and if it happens less than that then you're actually in decent shape against his range anyway just based on how often he's 3-betting.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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There's nothing wrong with just playing preflop poker against a clown like this, he's really exploitable just because of how much money he's putting in preflop with junk hands and you'll have better cards than him usually.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,042
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Sample size on him 3betting every open but one?
edit - nvm I see it said 75 hands... that's a lot of 3betting...
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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mcatdog sure, but its probably +ev to 4bc any two, so why waste it on a hand this pretty
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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My first thought was to raise the flop. As played fold turn. Against this guy I'd start limping the button and seeing how he reacts to it. If he keeps raising your limps, then I'd limp my entire range, and of course mix in some LRR's. Otherwise just call and see a lot of flops in position. You could get into crazy preflop wars with this guy, but I think it's more +ev to play smaller pots in position with him, not to mention much less variance. How does this guy play postflop? Does he slow down past the flop?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
mcatdog sure, but its probably +ev to 4bc any two, so why waste it on a hand this pretty
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My thoughts pretty much, KQ has much more value when flatted pre then fourbetting here.
BUT mcat brings up a great point. When someone fourbets this much, you pretty much just have to lower your preflop open % a lot and get it all in with like 22+ and Ax+, as well as some sc's. It's probably relatively optimal, whether he adjusts or not.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Definately adjust, it just seems to me that a hand like KQ is the perfect hand to just flat the 3-bet and play some postflop poker.
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Just playing to improve.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Well then I could ask why we usually 4-bet/call AK (against normal opponents)? You could easily say it's better to flat a 3-bet with AK, make a pair that dominates your opponent's pair and get all-in.
AK vs. a sane person's all-in preflop range should have about the same amount of equity as KQ vs this guy's range (about 50% or so vs any pair, any broadway and a few SC's) so why is there more value in seeing a flop (or for that matter, in seeing any flops vs this player when you can pwn him preflop)?
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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AK is dominated by only AA/KK whereas KQ is dominated by both AK and AQ and QQ as well. At this point we dont have a lot of indications of this guys 4-bet call/5-bet range.
Flatting with AK wouldnt be bad v's this guy though.
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Just playing to improve.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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its apples and oranges
you don't say "hey stacking off with X hand is best if i have fixed Y% equity when called"
Its more about whats best and whats worst. AK is so incredibly strong vs the range this guy stacks off with that its impossible to beat it by playing after the flop. KQ on the other hand has roughly similar postflop value to AK but dramatically less preflop all in value.
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