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bigspenda73
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05-25-2007, 02:49 PM
Post subject: Just a thought
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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In the past few months the games are getting tougher. There is a trend on here I see developing. Correct me if I am wrong:
I see a lot of people being very aggressive PF with marginal type hands.
My theory is this, in the past you could beat the NL games all the way up to 100NL with just good starting hand selection. Players did this, made some good money, but never really learned to play postflop. As the games are getting tougher people seem to be looking still at PF situations to make more money, and not the postflop ones.
This is a reference to the squeezing and light 3betting I see. The players who really thrive at NL on this site have moved past PF decisions and are really concentrating on postflop skill. Just something to chew on.
I don't think we need to be so aggressive PF especially when we may not have any edge postflop and all we are doing is committing ourselves more to mediocre holdings. This thought might come from my transferring to Omaha and the fact that PF decisions are relatively trivial. However, I can now see how huge of an edge one can gain by owning opponents postflop.
When I played 6max NL I was running like 17/13 over 30k hands. I never learned to play postflop, and it was a reason I never really got anywhere with it and eventually stoppped playing.
There is someone one here (maybe Mcat?) who dropped down like 3 levels to really LAGG it up and learn more postflop skill. I think that's a great concept and one people should consider employing.
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dsmrolla06
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 724
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When you are 3 betting light and being 3 bet light you are forced into more marginal post flop situations where good postflop play is necessary to win any money. How are you suggesting playing against people that are raising frequently or 3 betting light then, just calling and playing postflop? 17/13 and 6 max was pretty nitty though...
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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- It's definitely getting harder to win without a decent post-flop game which includes hand reading, occasional bluffs and light call-downs. I still think it's possible though, if you game and table select carefully. It's definitely possible at 200nl FR, for modest winrates (see Full Tilt "bots").
- Frequent 3-betting actually reduces the amount of post-flop decision making, because you're often playing just one street, two at the most.
- I think you can win in games up to 200nl without 3-betting light and definitely without 4-betting light. But adding these could certainly improve your winrate in these games.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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200NL and below the games are not getting harder. Can't speak for the other levels because I'm not there yet.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
200NL and below the games are not getting harder. Can't speak for the other levels because I'm not there yet.
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Well not on Pokerroom that's for sure...
...but we can't speak for Pokerstars.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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You can beat tight/tough games without a 40% VP$IP.
Actually I think in highly aggressive/paranoid games with a healthy amount of pre-flop re-raising, the suited crap needs to mostly go.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
...but we can't speak for Pokerstars.
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if you can adjust to nits, pokerstars is very profitable at the low-small stakes.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i think u can beat probably up to 25/50 without 3betting light
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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dsmrolla06
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 724
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So how do you combat people that are 3betting light? Ive been running into this lately and have had some trouble getting the best of them.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsmrolla06
So how do you combat people that are 3betting light? Ive been running into this lately and have had some trouble getting the best of them.
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this is complicated as 3betting light is definitely a strong/profitable play when used correctly. the best way to combat this is accurately assesing their 3betting range pf by keeping track of what their showing down. for example: if i open to 30 utg with 33 and a 19/17 3bets me to 90 from the BB i have an easy call. this is because his hand range is polarized towards big pairs and to a lesser extent AK and im getting over 8 to 1 stack odds.
if i open to 30 on the button with 33 and a 22/18 3bets me to 100 from the BB i have an easy fold because his range looks like Axs, any pair, AJ+, KQ, and occasionally scs and air. i cant be floating flops with my 33 because he will double barrel/value bet me thin into an unprofitable pf call.
if i open to 30 in the CO and a 22/18 3bets me to 100 from the BB and I have KQs, AQs, 88+, 54s-QJs, I need to mix calling/folding/very occasional 4bet bluffing into my range so that his bet doesnt show positive expectation, but I need to determine when and if and with what I call based on metagame factors and which hands he habitually 3bets (some favor big cards, some favor scs, some favor pairs) and also to play on his postflop tendencies- for instance if I call a 3bet with KQ and the flop comes Qd 9d 7c and he continuation bets, is he calling my shove with A9, 98, T9, TT, JJ, QJ, and strong draws, or only with AQ+?? if the first was true, I should be calling his light 3bets with big cards, and if the second is true I should be calling them more often with suited connectors and mid pairs.
this is a complicated topic ill post some more on it later if ppl r interested. Also mix up ur 4betting with AK, QQ+, with calling sometimes preflop, but again the more often you 4bet bluff the more often you should be 4betting QQ+.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsmrolla06
So how do you combat people that are 3betting light? Ive been running into this lately and have had some trouble getting the best of them.
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this is complicated as 3betting light is definitely a strong/profitable play when used correctly. the best way to combat this is accurately assesing their 3betting range pf by keeping track of what their showing down. for example: if i open to 30 utg with 33 and a 19/17 3bets me to 90 from the BB i have an easy call. this is because his hand range is polarized towards big pairs and to a lesser extent AK and im getting over 8 to 1 stack odds.
if i open to 30 on the button with 33 and a 22/18 3bets me to 100 from the BB i have an easy fold because his range looks like Axs, any pair, AJ+, KQ, and occasionally scs and air. i cant be floating flops with my 33 because he will double barrel/value bet me thin into an unprofitable pf call.
if i open to 30 in the CO and a 22/18 3bets me to 100 from the BB and I have KQs, AQs, 88+, 54s-QJs, I need to mix calling/folding/very occasional 4bet bluffing into my range so that his bet doesnt show positive expectation, but I need to determine when and if and with what I call based on metagame factors and which hands he habitually 3bets (some favor big cards, some favor scs, some favor pairs) and also to play on his postflop tendencies- for instance if I call a 3bet with KQ and the flop comes Qd 9d 7c and he continuation bets, is he calling my shove with A9, 98, T9, TT, JJ, QJ, and strong draws, or only with AQ+?? if the first was true, I should be calling his light 3bets with big cards, and if the second is true I should be calling them more often with suited connectors and mid pairs.
this is a complicated topic ill post some more on it later if ppl r interested. Also mix up ur 4betting with AK, QQ+, with calling sometimes preflop, but again the more often you 4bet bluff the more often you should be 4betting QQ+. |
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
this is a complicated topic ill post some more on it later if ppl r interested.
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please do. i'm very interested, as i'm sure are others.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
please do.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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LOL
This thread started b/c I said ppl were thinking TOO much about PF situations.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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the simplest way to combat this if ur a multitabling robot is just to fold until u hit JJ+ AQs+ and then 4bet and also 4bet say 22 and A5s....
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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why choose those type of hands, instead of extending our range to say 99+, ATs+ like 50% the time?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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OMG, my head is 'sploding
sigh
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dsmrolla06
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 724
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I would really like to hear more on being 3bet against. Yesterday it seemed like i was getting my ass handed to me from 3 betters where i would call they pot, i would have to fold and then trying to float to much as well.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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How about you start at thread on people who focus too much on PF decisions, then you could talk about focusing on PF decisions too much in that thread.
Now, Im totally for talking about playing postflop in a 3bet pot.
Rolla, there isn't any 1 way to play, why not post some of the hands in which you got 3bet.
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dsmrolla06
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 724
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Because im too ebarrased of my bad play.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsmrolla06
I would really like to hear more on being 3bet against. Yesterday it seemed like i was getting my ass handed to me from 3 betters where i would call they pot, i would have to fold and then trying to float to much as well.
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What did you call their 3-bets with? I like to c/r them on missed flops sometimes if my hand has decent equity to improve. ie if I called with AQ and whiff on a low flop, check since you're so sure he's going to pot it and then raise/push. I don't do this a lot, but if the guy has been getting so out of line why not?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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