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minSim
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12-08-2009, 06:44 PM
Post subject: Just a river c/r hand
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Villain 23/14/3.0 over only 30 hands, stealing a decent amount. Not seen anything special of him.
Basically questions are if you like c/ring the river and what your river decision is after villain 3bets it.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($29.10)
SB ($25)
Hero (BB) ($50.50)
UTG ($17.25)
MP ($25.50)
CO ($26.10)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8 , 7
3 folds, Button bets $0.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50
Flop: ($1.60) 10, Q , Q (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks
Turn: ($1.60) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, Button calls $1.10
River: ($3.80) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.50, Hero raises to $7.50, Button raises to $17, Hero
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I'd bet river and not c/r and now I'd fold.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I thought his river betting is range is a lot wider than his calling range, you don't agree?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
I thought his river betting is range is a lot wider than his calling range, you don't agree?
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if this is what you thought, then you should c/c, not c/r.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd bet river and not c/r and now I'd fold.
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This.
And I don't think his betting range is wider than his calling range... why do you think that? I think all his range except slowplayed boats/trips will check behind river. I also think you're never getting bluffraised by this guy on this river, so easy bet/fold.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I think his most likely hands are weakish made hands. Those are much likely to call a bet than bet. Now it just looks like he ginned the flop or bdoor-ed a flush.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Nvm, at the time I thought villain had a decent amount of Ax in his range. But now I'm looking at it again those should be cbetting a lot and the rest of his range is checking behind the river.
I folded to his river raise without really worrying about it. He showed the floped nuts so I got a nice read for free.
I guess betting river would be a close bet/call?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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completely opposite of a good spot for checkraising the river. easy bet/fold
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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If you're thinking about c/r river, you have to consider his b/CALL range and not just his betting range.
A c/r is good in a spot where he has a lot of worse thands that will b/c, which isn't the case here.
You can argue that he might bluff the K, which could make it closer between betting and c/c. He might also try repping spades if you check. But in general, he rarely has worse hands that will b/c here, so just bet yourself. It's not like he's gonna b/c KJ here or something.
He might even check back KJ/AK sometimes, but call a bet himself.
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Dex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bringing the mind home.
Posts: 172
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Does anyone think this is a good spot to overbet the river?
Villains line looks weakish like pot control, but I feel like overbetting the river doesn't really reduce his calling range and if anything gets more value out of a K or something like 99 that thinks lol you don't have a Q. It may also have the added bonus of making a passively played rivered straight think twice about putting you in a meh spot by raising, depending on how passive villain is.
You could do this with a hand like full houses, QJ, any straight, maybe even AK although a smaller value bet would maybe make more sense here since it's then harder for villain to have a K.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Really not arguing about the river line, but I do think you guys are giving a pretty unknown 25NL a lot of respect.
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Dex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bringing the mind home.
Posts: 172
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
Really not arguing about the river line, but I do think you guys are giving a pretty unknown 25NL a lot of respect.
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At what point, when he reraises river? Would he reraise a straight or trips vs a river c/r, which is pretty rare at 25nl, on a paired, 3 flush board? Or would he flat your c/r? I'd think he'd flat. I know we don't have a lot of information or hands on this villain but a river c/r gives even a semi-aware villain information about the strength of your hand.
I mean, to even think about calling this, you'd need a read that he either makes crazy decisions or overvalues the strength of a straight or trips on this board vs a river c/r.
Plus if you at least had a hand like AsXs, QsJs or Qs9s then we can start adding smaller backdoor flushes to villains range.
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ChipTrix
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High Card
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9
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What do you expect him to call a CR with that you beat? If you don't have a good answer here, then you should be betting. Especially with how the hand played, betting > then C/R.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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As said, I'm not talking about my line, but in general I think this villain is given a lot of respect.
I.e. in my opinion if I'd bet the river instead of c/r, and would then face a raise a call would at least be close to a fold because I definately can't rule out all Q's, worse flushes, straight, some K's even and general spew. I see so many undefinable plays at 25NL and 50NL that giving too much respect with a hand that's in the top of your range feels kinda dirty.
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Dragon Slayer
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 228
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
As said, I'm not talking about my line, but in general I think this villain is given a lot of respect.
I.e. in my opinion if I'd bet the river instead of c/r, and would then face a raise a call would at least be close to a fold because I definately can't rule out all Q's, worse flushes, straight, some K's even and general spew. I see so many undefinable plays at 25NL and 50NL that giving too much respect with a hand that's in the top of your range feels kinda dirty.
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Yes we are giving this player a lot of respect. Just because hes playing NL25/50 doesn't automatically mean hes a drooler. This is more of a specific hand rather than judging the play as a whole to all NL 25 players. You already said he was running decent stats that would indicate he at least has half a brain, looks like he might have bought in full, and you said hes aggressive on the steals.
I do agree that a C/C or B/F or maybe even B/C if its small enuff. I think we need a better read to think that hes coming over the top of a CR with worse.
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