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JJ UTG v UTG1

  
 
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will641
Old 01-26-2009, 05:08 PM     Post subject: JJ UTG v UTG1 #1 (permalink)  
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 villain here i only have 30 hands on, and thus far hes laggy, but thats the extent of my reads. normally i would just flat but the idea of raising popped into my mind. something smallish like a little under 3x. reason being is that in terms of nut hands this board is just awful for me...i can only have like 77/44 and the rest are draws or turning hands into bluffs or whatever. for that reason i think he might induce a bluff raise or him making a really marginal jam with a pair worse than mine and in some instances better. im interested in what people think of my thought process and the play itself.

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Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J
UTG raises to $16, Hero calls $16, 4 folds

Flop: ($38) 4, 7, 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $32, Hero
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noble007
Old 01-26-2009, 05:36 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I think a 2.5x raise here will induce a bluff sometimes from overs and 99+ will often ship as you said.(Obv you will be behind overs and a draw) and I think this line is just +ev when you look at the ranges.
(But also bear in mind he expects you to think his utg is quite strong and that you expect him to ship TT+ on a drawy flop like this so this might make him less likely to rebluff with overs.)

I prefer flatting a flop like this because he's going to dbl barrel a much wider range of hands on this board that you beat & with position I think you can make alot more +ev decisions on the turn.

(Though I 3bet JJ pre in this spot with a 90%+ frequency)
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griffey24
Old 01-26-2009, 06:04 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I'd flat the flop vs most opponents, and raise to induce from opponents I view as spewy and won't give your raise any credit here.

(I 3bet pre here with a very low frequency, 10% maybe. And that's only if I know they tend to call a lot OOP)

Noble - why are you 3betting JJ vs an UTG range so much? Are you happy stacking to 4bets?
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will641
Old 01-26-2009, 06:07 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 noble i think you will see your life improve greatly if you stop 3-betting utg raisers with such a high frequency.
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noble007
Old 01-26-2009, 06:45 PM #5 (permalink)  
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If I am ahead of my opponents range I will usually raise for value.

Even against a fairly tight utg pfr raising range say 10%

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.898% 41.23% 00.67% 504046752 8187948.00 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 58.102% 57.43% 00.67% 702162408 8187948.00 { JJ }

With this kind of equity I am definitely getting more money in the pot. (It also gives me the iniative in the hand which greatly increases the ev of most playable hands.)

Regarding if I'm happy stacking off with JJ vs an utg player in a vacuum it's just a maths question of how much of his range he's 4betting.

if his 4bet range is the usual 2.5% or less (QQ+,AK) then it becomes an easy fold and I'm happy I made my hand so easy to play.

If his 4bet range is greater than 4% then yes I'm stacking off in this spot with a smile.
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kmind
Old 01-26-2009, 06:56 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I don't know noble. Just because a hand is easy to play in a way doesn't mean that's the most profitable line.
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XTR1000
Old 01-26-2009, 07:04 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noble007
If I am ahead of my opponents range I will usually raise for value.

Even against a fairly tight utg pfr raising range say 10%

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.898% 41.23% 00.67% 504046752 8187948.00 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 58.102% 57.43% 00.67% 702162408 8187948.00 { JJ }

With this kind of equity I am definitely getting more money in the pot. (It also gives me the iniative in the hand which greatly increases the ev of most playable hands.)
I think you should consider which range continues to your 3bet
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Silly String
Old 01-26-2009, 07:49 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I don't mind 3betting a LAG here more often than 10%. I guess that boils down to how laggy is this guy & how positionally aware. Will is best to answer that one and he may not know either given the limited read.
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noble007
Old 01-26-2009, 07:49 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XTR1000
I think you should consider which range continues to your 3bet
Yeah that's a fair point, I think it's like the argument of 3betting AT in a HU match. You fold out worse Aces and better ones stay in.
So you get alot of reverse implied odds and not alot of opportunities to extract value.

But for me personally I've considered both options and still choose to get more money in the pot with a high frequency when I'm ahead of my opponents range and take control of the hand.
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 01-26-2009, 07:54 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I call here in a lot of places, especially if opponent is good and we don't have an image vs him (we are a new player and he doesn't know if were good or not). Our hand will look a lot like a pair, and you will peel this flop with tons of pairs that he can barrel off. I would expect to get a turn bet a lot of the times.

If he is an aggro monkey, raise small, induce the shove and profit.
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nutsinho
Old 01-26-2009, 09:21 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 id call preflop and on the flop close to 100% vs any fullstacking regular
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bigspenda73
Old 01-26-2009, 09:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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griffey24
Old 01-26-2009, 09:30 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Noble - Are you folding JJ to 4bets when you 3bet UTG opens? Are you often stacking off?

If you're folding, then I think you're pretty much turning it into a bluff.

If you're stacking off, then I think you're gonna get dominated waaay too much vs an UTG 4bet/stack off range.

If you're 3betting fish, then that makes sense, both for value and for isolating. I'm just not sure about regs ....
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noble007
Old 01-26-2009, 10:40 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I'm usually only stacking off if the equity I have vs their 4bet range + the dead money in the pot make it +ev to do so.
(HM manager has some good graphs/tables for determining these frequencies)

If they are raising 10% of their hands utg but only 4betting QQ+AK+ (2.5%) then I will probably fold to the 4bet.
(But the 3bet is still profitable because 3/4 times I win their raise + blinds (+-5bb) and 1 x I lose my 3bet (-12bb))

Now you can argue that the 3bet is pretty much a bluff if you are folding to a 4bet in this case, but for me it's very important to have a strong (mainly) linear 3bet range because players will attempt to play back at your 3bets by 4 betting more (sometimes for value and sometimes as a bluff)

And this is actually an effective & very profitable counter strategy to players who have too many weak hands sc's, low pp & air in their 3bet range. (You'll find players like this have a high fold to 4bet%.)

But because I am 3betting a mostly linear range when villian starts to 4bet lighter I am going to have the hands in my range to take advantage of that. In this case if he 4bets more than 3.5% of hands I have the equity to stack off with JJ.

But if you are only 3betting QQ+,AKs & 'some bluffs' vs this utg raiser if he 4bets any more than the avg then he will be the one exploiting you & then you have to either 3bet a tighter range or adjust your 3bets to include a more linear range that has stack off equity vs his wider 4bet range.

I choose normally to 3bet a more linear range than most from the outset (I do add some weaker hands though) so I am as close to being unexploitable pre-flop as possible.

(Note-I'm also aware of the potentially negative post flop implications of this strategy but the adv of getting more money in the pot when I'm ahead of their range pre-flop and having the iniative counter alot of these.)
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meeloche
Old 01-27-2009, 01:42 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 Fatting in both spots is standard for me. Like others have said I would raise to get it in if villain was spewy enough to warrent this.

@noble
As you move up in stakes you can't just raise fold all the time since you're not going to make money doing this as people get better. A lot of the times you have to call and make a decision on later streets. How many bluffs do you induce raising the flop vs calling and seeing the turn? Not as many people are going to bluff shove over your raise (which looks super strong) as are going to try and barrel you off your pair on the turn.



 
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noble007
Old 01-27-2009, 01:51 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meeloche
Fatting in both spots is standard for me. Like others have said I would raise to get it in if villain was spewy enough to warrent this.

@noble
As you move up in stakes you can't just raise fold all the time since you're not going to make money doing this as people get better. A lot of the times you have to call and make a decision on later streets. How many bluffs do you induce raising the flop vs calling and seeing the turn? Not as many people are going to bluff shove over your raise (which looks super strong) as are going to try and barrel you off your pair on the turn.
Hi ya,

If you read my first response I wrote

'I prefer flatting a flop like this because he's going to dbl barrel a much wider range of hands on this board that you beat & with position I think you can make alot more +ev decisions on the turn.'

So I completely agree with you about flatting post flop as the hand was played.

(I was only saying I prefer 3-betting pre-flop for value - though I realise many people will not agree with me on that one.)

@meeloche
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 01-27-2009, 02:18 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Very rarely will you get value by 3 betting JJ in this situation. Your basically raising to see where your at, which in general is a terrible play.
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noble007
Old 01-27-2009, 02:35 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
Very rarely will you get value by 3 betting JJ in this situation. Your basically raising to see where your at, which in general is a terrible play.
see.
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Alexos
Old 01-27-2009, 03:46 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
id call preflop and on the flop close to 100% vs any fullstacking regular
this.

but im raising this vs spewtards like griffey i have lots of history wit
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Toadstool
Old 01-27-2009, 01:14 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 I'd flat almost always here pre. You have position. Very rarely is UTG going to just flat call, and why do you want to either A) take down the UTG raise + blinds or B) get AI and be in bad shape against his range or C) lose your 3 bet when he 4 bets and you fold? If you add up those scenarios (say A & C cancel each other out) then you're left with B which is not a good situation to be in.

Flatting here and playing JJ in position with a high SPR is the most profitable here, even if he does call your 3 bet, it negates position somewhat as the less the SPR the less your position matters.
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noble007
Old 01-27-2009, 03:35 PM #21 (permalink)  
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All good points, I'm definitely going against the grain on this one.
You'll be glad to know I'm done trying to justify my -ev way of playing jacks in this situation

Serious Question though, is JJ like the tweener hand for you guys in this spot? Would you 3bet QQ here alot or is it better to flat with this too?
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griffey24
Old 01-27-2009, 04:41 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noble007
Serious Question though, is JJ like the tweener hand for you guys in this spot? Would you 3bet QQ here alot or is it better to flat with this too?
I flat QQ a fair bit too, especially when there are lotsa squeezers.
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Alexos
Old 01-27-2009, 04:54 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 its a flat everything spot for me (edit: preflop)

although some days id just raise everything to mess with them a bit
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mcatdog
Old 01-27-2009, 05:10 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
its a flat everything spot for me
Me too. Flatting most hands and only raising QQ+ or KK+ makes your hand obvious to all but the stupidest of oponents.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 01-29-2009, 12:37 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
its a flat everything spot for me
Me too. Flatting most hands and only raising QQ+ or KK+ makes your hand obvious to all but the stupidest of oponents.
most people are retarded though ( ).

A lot of times with reads what is standard becomes incorrect, i can think of regulars or game flow times i play against where raising this board is absolutely the correct play. Here are some things i'd look for if i wanted to raise:

1) Does he have a wide utg opening range?
2) Is he passive on the turn (does he refrain from double barreling?)?
3) is he the type to always try to rep AA?
4) Does he 3-bet flops oop as bluffs?
5) Is he not afraid to put his stack in?

Just figure out how he's going to screw up and act accordingly.
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