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UG
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02-21-2006, 01:50 PM
Post subject: JJ overpair hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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I know this is *so* read based...and my line here is probably really terrible, but this is how I played it. Where did I go wrong, what could I have done better here? I'm pretty sure the fold was a correct one, but was it?
CO has $465
UG (button) has $235
NL200 6-max
Dealt to Ultimate George: J  J 
CO calls $2, Ultimate George raises to $9, SB folds, BB folds, CO calls $9. Pot = $19.50
Flop: 2 9  10
CO checks, Ultimate George bets $15, CO min-raises to $30, Ultimate George bets raises to $60, CO pushes all-in, Ultimate George.....folds.
Should I be done with this hand with the min-raise? Me thinks no. Should I call and see what happens on the turn, how he bets depending on what falls? Probably. Should I re-raise for information and find out I'm beat here, like I did? Hmm....
Again, I know this is all about reads at this point...only a few orbits in, this guy hasn't done anything too outlandish yet. How is my play on all streets?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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It's not unreasonable for this guy to have a lot of hands that have you beat. I would fold, but if you have a good read, go with it.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I like calling the min-raise and hoping to hit my Jack on the turn. Same scenario happened to me last night (minus the flush draw). Some guy hit a a lower set, I spiked a Jack on the turn, made one buyin. Otherwise I lay it down. I usually don't chase sets unless I have an overpair and the call is reasonable.
With that said, what do you put this guy on...it's a strange line for a set or an overpair. Why would he min check-raise that board? He may have AKd or KQd. If he has any of the hands I mention, you are a minor underdog at best. Good fold as played.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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I have gotten to the point where I don't even play a JJ overpair strongly. If thats all I make is an overpair with JJ, then I generally try to play a small pot, unless I am reasonably sure that the opponent is drawing.
Besides, who's going to call a real big bet (or raise themselves) with pair of tens?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i dont see how you played i wrong.
Id play it the same way. You just cant call that poosh unless you are absolutly certain you are good.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i call and then reevaluate the turn.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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You call the initial min-raise?
I think you played it fine UG. Although Gabe's line works here too.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Ehh, I just posted this because it was one of my "goddammit--WTF" moments from last night. I've just been running really bad with JJ/QQ/KK running into over-cards on the board, with c-bets being called a lot, and with my big hands running into bigger hands.
Finally I have an over-pair here and somebody who hasn't been too out of line decides he wants to play for stacks even though I've already told him I have a big hand here......
Just a silly hand to post because, for some reason, I really wanted to lose my stack here last night, even though I knew it would have been a bone-headed play...
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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You minraised his minraise.... is that standard play to "find out if he wants to play for stacks"?--- I hate da minraise... =)
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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The hand illustrates everything I hate about the popular approach to post-flop play last year.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sunfunbunch
You minraised his minraise....
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George made it $60, a min-re-raise would be $45.
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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Good point, I was just looking at the numbers! tsk tsk.. sunfunbunch 
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The hand illustrates everything I hate about the popular approach to post-flop play last year.
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Putting money in the pot "for information", when it's better to gain it for free?
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vrax
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The hand illustrates everything I hate about the popular approach to post-flop play last year.
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Putting money in the pot "for information", when it's better to gain it for free? |
...and making difficult decisions without a read.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i call and then reevaluate the turn.
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That's my standard line without a good read. If you peel a blank turn card, big draws like Qd-Jd, 7d-8d suddenly aren't so excited about their hand. Hands like these are what makes position so valuable. Also keep in mind that an A, K, or Q on the turn would be good cards to potentially "bluff" CO out with if he is overplaying a hand like top pair.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I'd usually prefer to reraise if opponent is capable of calling with a worse hand, otherwise, there isn't much value in the raise. You're telling him to fold because you have an overpair. Better is giving him the chance to overplay his hand and also hedge against losing more to those hands which beat yours.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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First off, thank you to everyone that took the time to reply to this thread. I really appreciate it. I'll post my thoughts over the next few replies and see if that stirs up any more conversation.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Okay, there are essentially four ways that I could have played this hand.....below is my commentary on how I see things, in no particular order.
1. Fold to his min-raise. I don't think anyone folds an over-pair to a min-check-raise in this situation, but with a better read it's not totally out of line here. The min-check-raise, to me, sometimes screams, "Holy shit, I have a monster here and I'm thinking this is possibly the best way to get the most money into the pot right now, hoping that my opponent is on an overpair." It's definitely not the way I would play a set or two-pair in this situation, but I've seen opponents take this line time and time again. This is by far the cheapest route possible but it is so freaking weak it almost shouldn't be mentioned.
2. I could flat call his min-check-raise. This is a cheap option too, but I don't think it gives me any information about my opponents hand. By calling, if he pots it on the turn I have another difficult decision to make, and will most likely be folding unless he underbets the pot big-time. Or, if he checks, do I bet out again on a non-scare card and risk getting check-raised again? Do I check and let him see a free river, when he may have been drawing all-along? Again, this is a cheap option on the flop...but if you look further down the road, actually how cheap/smart is this option?
3. I could play the hand the exact way that I did. His min-check-raise, to me, says, "I got a piece of that flop. It could be a big piece or a small piece, I'm not telling yet." My re-raise tells him, essentially, "You better have a big fucking piece of that because I still have an over-pair." I've seen many people fold to this bet in the past (and, btw, it was not a min-raise of his check-raise, it was a raise just large enough to find out the information I needed without totally committing myself to going the distance). My betting pattern clearly defined my hand, which is okay to do sometimes when you're finding out information (Fnord, you disagree with this, please tell me why). If he pushes over the top he's telling me, "I don't give a shit what you have, my hand is better," and I fold. If he folds, I win the pot right there. In the long run I'm not sure, at least now, if this is a +EV raise in this position.
4. I do everything the same way but *call* his all-in. I don't see how this is right with no reads, because he's essentially told me that he doesn't respect an over-pair. So this is by far the worst option.
Looking at these four options, the only one that really stands out as a better play in this situation is flat calling his min-check-raise. If I do that I can reevaluate on the turn. I most likely fold to any large bet, *but* I leave the possibility open that he wants to check it down. This one saves more money in the long-run, I'd think......but it gives me absolutely no information about his hand. If he bets big again, then what, "Take his word for it, he's got a monster?" If that's the case, then why am I even calling his check-min-raise in the first place?
Which leads me to an "ah-ha" moment.....
5. I flat call his check-min-raise.....and a diamond hits on the turn. If he's got a set/two-pair, he probably slows way-the-frick-down....or maybe he bets it but *I* come over the top, repping the flush, and I can win the pot. Hmm....I don't know how +EV that move is either.
Frick it, I'm stuck....I think either way here my JJ is no good. It just cost me a lot of money to find that out.
Any thoughts on the above?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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good post
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
2. I could flat call his min-check-raise. This is a cheap option too, but I don't think it gives me any information about my opponents hand.
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you have position so you can see what he does on the turn. seeing how much he reacts to the next card really defines his hand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Έχω τα καρύδια
Sono su un tiraggio
Estoy fanfarroneando
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Έχω τα καρύδια
Sono su un tiraggio
Estoy fanfarroneando
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That's awesome.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Έχω τα καρύδια
Sono su un tiraggio
Estoy fanfarroneando
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That's awesome. |
i dont talk nazi 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i dont talk nazi |
Du Arschloch englisches Schwein
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i dont talk nazi |
Du Arschloch englisches Schwein |
mater est in horto (latin)
Ok no more bragging!
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Okay, there are essentially four ways that I could have played this hand.....below is my commentary on how I see things, in no particular order.
1. Fold to his min-raise. I don't think anyone folds an over-pair to a min-check-raise in this situation, but with a better read it's not totally out of line here. The min-check-raise, to me, sometimes screams, "Holy shit, I have a monster here and I'm thinking this is possibly the best way to get the most money into the pot right now, hoping that my opponent is on an overpair." It's definitely not the way I would play a set or two-pair in this situation, but I've seen opponents take this line time and time again. This is by far the cheapest route possible but it is so freaking weak it almost shouldn't be mentioned.
2. I could flat call his min-check-raise. This is a cheap option too, but I don't think it gives me any information about my opponents hand. By calling, if he pots it on the turn I have another difficult decision to make, and will most likely be folding unless he underbets the pot big-time. Or, if he checks, do I bet out again on a non-scare card and risk getting check-raised again? Do I check and let him see a free river, when he may have been drawing all-along? Again, this is a cheap option on the flop...but if you look further down the road, actually how cheap/smart is this option?
3. I could play the hand the exact way that I did. His min-check-raise, to me, says, "I got a piece of that flop. It could be a big piece or a small piece, I'm not telling yet." My re-raise tells him, essentially, "You better have a big fucking piece of that because I still have an over-pair." I've seen many people fold to this bet in the past (and, btw, it was not a min-raise of his check-raise, it was a raise just large enough to find out the information I needed without totally committing myself to going the distance). My betting pattern clearly defined my hand, which is okay to do sometimes when you're finding out information (Fnord, you disagree with this, please tell me why). If he pushes over the top he's telling me, "I don't give a shit what you have, my hand is better," and I fold. If he folds, I win the pot right there. In the long run I'm not sure, at least now, if this is a +EV raise in this position.
4. I do everything the same way but *call* his all-in. I don't see how this is right with no reads, because he's essentially told me that he doesn't respect an over-pair. So this is by far the worst option.
Looking at these four options, the only one that really stands out as a better play in this situation is flat calling his min-check-raise. If I do that I can reevaluate on the turn. I most likely fold to any large bet, *but* I leave the possibility open that he wants to check it down. This one saves more money in the long-run, I'd think......but it gives me absolutely no information about his hand. If he bets big again, then what, "Take his word for it, he's got a monster?" If that's the case, then why am I even calling his check-min-raise in the first place?
Which leads me to an "ah-ha" moment.....
5. I flat call his check-min-raise.....and a diamond hits on the turn. If he's got a set/two-pair, he probably slows way-the-frick-down....or maybe he bets it but *I* come over the top, repping the flush, and I can win the pot. Hmm....I don't know how +EV that move is either.
Frick it, I'm stuck....I think either way here my JJ is no good. It just cost me a lot of money to find that out.
Any thoughts on the above?
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No thoughts on any of this?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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play it the same
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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#2. You have position and can react to his turn move...hopefully hit a Jack while you're there. You could potentially rep a flush if you sense it scares him too.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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UG: this is very opponent dependant. Against a thinking ABC opponent your line is fine. Against somebody who is really timid I might even fold but that is really unlikely though. The problem on turn will be that he will be very likely to fire again on turn. Honestly I dont know, my action would pretty much be based on the feel I have when I am in the hand here. I will write some comments when I have time.
Fnord, est ist ja so schön das ein Amerikaner ein bisschen deutsh schreiben kann. du wirklich bist ein höflicher Mann 
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Here is my logic:
1) You are either way ahead, way behind, ahead (good draw) or very close to even (pair+f/d).
Pre-flop - limp/call indicates pocket pair, suited connectors. Weirdly played QQ/KK, possibly AA, although typically you would UTG limp+ re-raise with KK/AA. Limp/call with 99/TT seems odd as well.
Flop - check/min-raise = MONSTER. Unless you have been playing so aggro that your PFR+C-bet means absolutly nothing. Ruling out some kinda of nutty long ball bluff with air, he could have: 22/9T/JQd/78d/7Jd(!?!?!)
Long shots: AT/AXd/A2d/99/TT/QQ/KK/AA
No read, but people do over play TPTK here.
The tricky bit is that if you are ahead you don't really want him to fold. You kinda have to punt if a diamond turns, since the only hand you are beating is now AT or worse. I think the odds that you are way behind seem to indicate that you should not re-raise on the flop. Can you fold? Not really, besides you have to take the chance of punishing him for min/raising (implied odds?).
A set is probably open pushing a blank turn. And maybe a turned diamond as well. Any half decent player is going to put you off 2 diamonds after your PF raise. You have some redraws as well. Still, I would play very cautiously after the turn.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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he isnt up against a 17outer here is he by any chance?
oesfd so either 78s or jqs, but id guess both of those would open for a raise?
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