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JJ bvb against LAG.

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AnTman_69

03-11-2009, 08:44 AM Post subject: JJ bvb against LAG.

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Brisbane, Australia

Posts: 463

vill is LAG and half decent. PLaying 28/24/3 with 12% 3bet over 200 hands. He has 3 bet me 4 times so far and i've folded every time. He could think for that reason im 'playing back' in this spot. Being OOP here sucks so bad.

Hows pre betsizing? What range do we give him here in a 4 bet pot bvb? And What are our best flop options?

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($154.90)
UTG+1 ($100.00)
CO ($154.70)
BTN ($154.50)
Hero (SB) ($174.80)
BB ($100.00)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is SB

4 folds, Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $12, Hero raises to $30, BB calls $18

Flop:

($60, 2 players)
Hero??

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XTR1000

03-11-2009, 09:42 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Location: surfing in a room

Posts: 2,188

XTR1000 is an unknown quantity at this point

shitty spot.

sizing looks fine to me and I´d just c/f this flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

XTR1000

03-11-2009, 10:17 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Location: surfing in a room

Posts: 2,188

This just happened to me. Same spot, not worth its own thread.

$0.50/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($29.00)
CO ($117.15)
BTN ($124.40)
SB ($101.50)
BB ($105.90)

Hero is SB with :Jc: :Jd:

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players)
3 folds, SB bets $3, BB bets $12.50, SB bets $27, BB calls $17

Flop:

($61, 2 players)
SB checks, BB bets $38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

AnTman_69

03-11-2009, 10:31 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Brisbane, Australia

Posts: 463

Dam that's also a shitty spot. Someone smarter then me comment with really helpful advice plz. gogo.

AnTman_69

03-12-2009, 05:10 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Brisbane, Australia

Posts: 463

Are these super standard hands or something? I was away all day and couldn't wait to see what reply's had been written...and to my dissapointment, nothing was said.

bigspenda73

03-12-2009, 05:16 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,546

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

idk I'm 4bet jamming PF b/c both of your opponents suck really hard and 3bet to way too huge of an amount PF which makes 4betting to a semi-correct size and it still being balanced seemingly impossible.

dev

03-12-2009, 05:34 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: swonging and swonging

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I might be a little confused about 3bet sizing then. The sizes look standard to me. Are we 3betting 3x instead of 4x or what?

Check out my self-deprecation here!

bjsaust

03-12-2009, 06:15 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

3x is standard IP and 4x OOP.

I'm tossing up whether I prefer a 4-bet shove or flatting the 3-bet OOP. We're just not going to flop an overpair/set that often, so seeing this flop OOP with this pot size really sucks.

Just playing to improve.

yourfather

03-12-2009, 02:22 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Location: In your fridge

Posts: 603

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

I might be a little confused about 3bet sizing then. The sizes look standard to me. Are we 3betting 3x instead of 4x or what?

I think he was referring to the % they three bet and not the actual bet size.

bspahn

03-12-2009, 02:41 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 851

couple things here. if your opponents are particularly bad, and you shove oop bvb with a hand like JJ they will often convince themselves that you must have AK/AQ or trash and i've been called in these spots with hands like 88-TT which is great for your hand. it also makes you not care what bad flops may come where you have to make a laydown.

one more thing, if people are bad enough to call your 4bets, just make them larger. don't worry if it's Non-standard sizing, we don't always have to make bets and raises etc the exact same size...

Marshall28

03-13-2009, 01:30 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 1,198

I really like spenda's idea of 4bet shoving over these 3bets since they are unnecessarily large for the situation. I particularly like the play w/ JJ/QQ since they don't flop an overpair as often and it's more likely to get called by a smaller pair thinking we have 2 big cards like bspahn said.

When someone flats my 4b like this, no matter what the flop is, I just go ahead and bet like 1/4 pot. So pot was 60, I'd bet like 15. If he calls, turn pot size is 90 and effective stacks are 55, I'd bet 20. If he hasn't raised you and hasn't folded by this point, he's trapping you so don't put in the last bet. Obviously this is super exploitable if villain knows what you're doing, but I've been using this with tremendous success, particularly in HU games. The hands people are flatting 4bets with seem to me to be something like 88-TT and AQs/AJs/ATs/KQs. They just fold soso often when I do this that I think it's pretty profitable (obviously I'm gonna change it up when I start feeling like I'm losing in these spots though).

AnTman_69

03-13-2009, 02:43 AM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Brisbane, Australia

Posts: 463

I got owned so hard. I must admit, i had to immediately quit after this. How bad is b/fing here...

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($154.90)
UTG+1 ($100.00)
CO ($154.70)
BTN ($154.50)
Hero (SB) ($174.80)
BB ($100.00)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is SB

Hero says "lolz", 4 folds, Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $12, Hero raises to $30, BB calls $18

Flop:

($60, 2 players)
Hero bets $19, BB raises to $38, Hero folds

Final Pot: $98
BB shows:

BB wins $114 ( won +$46 )
Hero lost -$49

Fnord

03-13-2009, 03:04 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Hand 1: Re-raise to around 1/3 of the effective stack size and shove any flop. If you really think he has big cards, check/fold if 2 overs flop.

Hand 2: Ditto on my pre-flop advice. I shove that flop and expect worse hands to call.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

91,080 games 0.005 secs 18,216,000 games/sec

Board: Kc Qh 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.107% 53.55% 00.56% 48774 507.00 { JcJs }
Hand 1: 45.893% 45.34% 00.56% 41292 507.00 { 22+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }

96,030 games 0.005 secs 19,206,000 games/sec

Board: Kd 6s 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.472% 55.96% 00.52% 53735 495.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 43.528% 43.01% 00.52% 41305 495.00 { 22+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }

If he shoves over QQ+, AK you're in even better shape!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Marshall28

03-13-2009, 08:38 AM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 1,198

Antman, you actually didn't get owned here at all. Villain is an idiot. He read you very incorrectly and just got lucky. Think about what your 4betting range is in this spot and think about how often you actually do have a hand when you do this. Particularly one that hits any piece of this board. Taking this into account, you are going to win a lot of money from him w/ him playing like this.

bigspenda73

03-13-2009, 04:44 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,546

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall28

exactly, think about this hand with your entire range and then laugh at how audacious a bluff this is (both his call of the 4bet PF and then his flop raise). Gbucks man, g-to-da-bizzucks.

Fnord

03-13-2009, 06:23 PM

#16 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Because AA/KK/AK tend to just shove over, quite often 4-bet calls are pretty LoL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

poker3player333

03-14-2009, 01:25 AM

#17 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by XTR1000

($61, 2 players)
SB checks, BB bets $38

Not worth it's own thread, lol. I like the c/f here too.

Fnord

03-14-2009, 03:23 AM

#18 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker3player333

Not worth it's own thread, lol. I like the c/f here too.

You fold too much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Renton

03-14-2009, 03:39 AM

#19 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

i would just jam pre i think, but now c/f

when he makes it 4x like that you really can't make a noncommittal 4bet, so just ship it in imo

Renton

03-14-2009, 03:39 AM

#20 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

obviously check fold as played

Fnord

03-14-2009, 04:09 AM

#21 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

when he makes it 4x like that you really can't make a noncommittal 4bet, so just ship it in imo

Put in a third, ship the flop with your eyes closed. You'll get more mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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JJ bvb against LAG.

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