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zook
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05-22-2007, 04:21 AM
Post subject: JJ 3-bet by tagg, 170bb deep
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Villain is 18/14/4.5 over a bunch of hands, mostly mined. We haven't tangled since he sat down a few orbits ago. He 3-bet me once before and I folded.
I'm going to start with my first decision and move on from there...
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
CO ($682.50)
Button ($399.70)
SB ($344.05)
BB ($465.90)
UTG ($380.50)
Hero ($693.70)
Preflop: Hero is MP with J , J .
UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $20, CO raises to $70, 3 folds, UTG folds, Hero...
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Without history I would fold. And I like a 4-bet more then a call
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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call, stacks are deep and price is right, nm you are ahead here some
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ShowMeAtlas
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 393
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
Without history I would fold. And I like a 4-bet more then a call
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4bet? Did you see his stats?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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4bet= huuuge spew
fold= ok, with 100 BB stacks
call= what u need to do here. sets against 18/14=profit
what sucks is that u r likely going to be calling a flop bet on a dry flop with JJ unimproved OOP and if ur 18/14 guy is any good hes gonna be triple barrel shoving here and u cant call... but luckily hes probably not and hell check/check AK on turn and river....
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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What are your stats since he might have mined you as well?
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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I call and set mine here.
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Operation Grind For Education:
Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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AHiltz: My stats are 26/19/3, but I doubt he has many hands on me (unless he mines 1/2) b/c I've only played ~500 at 2/4 6max.
Thanks for the input, next decision...
Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J.
UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $20, CO raises to $70, 3 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $50.
Flop: ($150) T , Q, 6 (2 players)
Hero...
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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I think I check fold here, but it might be weak. You are ahead of AK and that might be it, and if it's AK spades you are in deep crap. Not to mention if you hit your J you might fill his straight.
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Operation Grind For Education:
Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i check call here just about always- only problem is if he is smart enough to double barrel AK here for sure cause then if he makes a psb on turn ur behind his range- however, what if he only makes a psb on turn with exactly AK, QQ and checks for pot control with KK and AA.... OMG this could be interesting!!! lol. so actually i think you can check fold here if he plays this tight and plays well as you are check/shoving a big draw/set here always most likely and so u get brutally outplayed if hes decent.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
i check call here just about always-
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the guys an 18/14, if his threebet range is AQ+, TT+ the only thing we're beating on this flop is AK and you check call?
I'm starting to think you're unable to adjust to nits.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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More decisions to come, we've got c/c and c/f on the table...
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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I hate these spots. I would definetely call pre-flop but check/fold the flop against this opponent.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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he's got a high aggression rating. what does that mean?
HE FOLDS A LOT!
aggression = bets to fold.
if you're folding, you're increasing your aggression rating too.
i donk 2/3 pot here. so...$100. and probably not any more money into this hand unless i spike a J on the turn, in which case i'm still not betting for value since we truly are afraid of AK on the turn.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
he's got a high aggression rating. what does that mean?
HE FOLDS A LOT!
aggression = bets to fold.
if you're folding, you're increasing your aggression rating too.
i donk 2/3 pot here. so...$100. and probably not any more money into this hand unless i spike a J on the turn, in which case i'm still not betting for value since we truly are afraid of AK on the turn.
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umm.. I suppose you could look at AF this way... folding instead of calling. But I think most would say his AF means that he's BETTING a lot and RAISING a lot.
So by donking here, I'd imagine you'll get raised here very often, which is the last thing we want.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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donk betting is bad here. a thinking villain would raise and we would have to fold.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
he's got a high aggression rating. what does that mean?
HE FOLDS A LOT!
aggression = bets to fold.
if you're folding, you're increasing your aggression rating too.
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Ummm... I'm not sure I follow. Aggression factor is calculated by (Raise % + Bet %) / (Call %). So folding post-flop should have no effect on your aggression factor. An example... over 100 hands you've bet the flop 40 times, raised 10 times, called 10 times. (40%+10%)/10% = AF of 5. The next 100 flops you fold. Now your bet % is 20, raise % is 5, call % is 5. (20+5)/5 still = AF of 5. Am I missing something?
Since most people seem to think I should c/f here, and I didn't, I'm just going to post the rest of the hand for a general line check...
Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J.
UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $20, CO raises to $70, 3 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $50.
Flop: ($150) T, Q, 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $100, Hero calls $100.
Turn: ($350) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.
River: ($350) K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $125, Hero folds.
After the turn check behind, I really felt like he had a whiffed AK, maaaybe AQ or KK looking for pot control. Unfortunately the river came and I didn't think I had a choice but to c/f. This hand sucked.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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so it looks like that AK was pretty spot on.
i like ISF's post. Unless he is 3-betting light, his range is def. TT+, AQ+ and you beat nothing but AK. I c/f this flop almost 100% of the time and i fold the river as played.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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shove river
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
i check call here just about always-
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the guys an 18/14, if his threebet range is AQ+, TT+ the only thing we're beating on this flop is AK and you check call? |
eh, i know an 18/14 at 200NL on stars who three bets 43s and absolute junk here a lot. 3-betting ranges and vpip/pfr can really differ.
The point is irrelevant though becuase without history that's probably a good range to put him on... i just wanted to make the point.
i'd rather not do this if i've never played a 3-bet pot with this guy but i like your thinking
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
shove river
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Is it bad that this never crossed my mind?
I need to start at least exploring more aggro plays.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
shove river
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I really like this. But still, I don't like doing this unless I know he can fold top pair in a 3-bet pot.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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somehow i thought that the total number of hands was calculated into AF. guess i'm wrong. damn i'm having a bad day.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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This just smells a ridiculous amount like thin value with AK.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
This just smells a ridiculous amount like thin value with AK.
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I agree. But given my line, I don't see how he finds a fold. Maybe if I open push river for $500, repping a missed turn c/r. I dunno, c/f flop is the best line I guess.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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I wouldn't do it against a strong player, but calling flop and leading a low turn isn't terrible
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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