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Kid Style
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07-12-2009, 09:06 PM
Post subject: J-J Middle Pos On a table full of Regs
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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Was playing on my last orbit since the table turned into one full of Regs. Then I was caught up on this hand. How often should I call this pre to make this profitable? Thoughts or in-depth analysis is appreciated.
UTG: 21/20 over 250 hands
SB: 24/19/9.1 over 500 hands
No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
Hero (CO) ($98.25)
Button ($117)
SB ($111.75)
BB ($91.50)
UTG ($106.50)
MP ($118.50)
Preflop: Hero is CO with J , J
UTG bets $3.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold, SB raises $14.50, 2 folds
Hero?????
Total pot: $11.50
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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I don't usually play cash games, so take this with a grain of salt.
As played I would 4b shove here.
1) SB is squeezing a fair lot here, as suggested by his fairly high aggression factor (if I'm reading those stats right, goddamn huds)
2) JJ is too strong to setmine with it
3) UTG, which is the one we should fear the most, laid down.
4) Stacksizes are wrong, as in if you bet anything meaningful, more than 1/3 of your stack should go in the pot making you committed anyway.
5) Your play can be interpreted as either weakness or trappyness.
6) Pot is already worth winning (?)
A shove in this spot should be very profitable, especially with the description that SB is a reg and knows a thing or two supposedly.
Some could argue that a smaller 4b is prefferable, saving you some money when SB is not bullshitting. But see point 4 (and 1).
Even better would be to 3b raise yourself instead of flatting in the first place.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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If his 3 bet is in fact 9 then shove is fine. If not folding is fine as well.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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if the 24/19 guy doesnt fold to 4bets ( i guess u have a smallish sample )
then getting it in is prob cool...
depending on his post-flop stats you could see a flop... for instance if he's passive post flop and doesn't cbet/barrel etc that much it'll be quite easy to play.
AS AN ASIDE: if i use the HEM large popup window in game, is there a way to get a "Squeeze" stat in there? i dont seem to have this. just 3bet% by position...
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Kid Style
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
I don't usually play cash games, so take this with a grain of salt.
As played I would 4b shove here.
1) SB is squeezing a fair lot here, as suggested by his fairly high aggression factor (if I'm reading those stats right, goddamn huds)
2) JJ is too strong to setmine with it
3) UTG, which is the one we should fear the most, laid down.
4) Stacksizes are wrong, as in if you bet anything meaningful, more than 1/3 of your stack should go in the pot making you committed anyway.
5) Your play can be interpreted as either weakness or trappyness.
6) Pot is already worth winning (?)
A shove in this spot should be very profitable, especially with the description that SB is a reg and knows a thing or two supposedly.
Some could argue that a smaller 4b is prefferable, saving you some money when SB is not bullshitting. But see point 4 (and 1).
Even better would be to 3b raise yourself instead of flatting in the first place.
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All your points makes perfect sense. But in a $100 cash, I just don't see why SB would squeeze anything but premium cards especially against an UTG reg. Or maybe he has an idea of the UTG range based on history?? I know I can't just call, but anyone else thinks a 4 bet shove is fine still even though I just smooth called UTG raise?? He could be doing this with 99-1010 as well...
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Kid Style
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bspahn
if the 24/19 guy doesnt fold to 4bets ( i guess u have a smallish sample )
then getting it in is prob cool...
depending on his post-flop stats you could see a flop... for instance if he's passive post flop and doesn't cbet/barrel etc that much it'll be quite easy to play.
AS AN ASIDE: if i use the HEM large popup window in game, is there a way to get a "Squeeze" stat in there? i dont seem to have this. just 3bet% by position...
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Hmm...I think he shoves with A-K,AA,99,ect on any flop which will put me in a difficult spot on any board. I don't know if calling pre is good.
But to answer you SQUEEZE stat, on the main HEM window choose HUD Options -> Player Preferences. Under Available Stats, you can add Squeeze to the player stats.
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The Izebox
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: bronx new york
Posts: 255
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Two things.
Three bet this preflop IP A four bet from the small blind means a little more in that case.
As played I guess I fourbet preflop but Im not happy about it. I feel that of your thinking about calling a three bet than you should have been the one to three bet preflop.
Dont ever flat this please as played. IMHO
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Me? I always tell the truth.
Even when I lie.
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Kid Style
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Izebox
Two things.
Three bet this preflop IP A four bet from the small blind means a little more in that case.
As played I guess I fourbet preflop but Im not happy about it. I feel that of your thinking about calling a three bet than you should have been the one to three bet preflop.
Dont ever flat this please as played. IMHO
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Good point. Probably made the mistake of not 3betting this pre now that I think about it
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bspahn
AS AN ASIDE: if i use the HEM large popup window in game, is there a way to get a "Squeeze" stat in there? i dont seem to have this. just 3bet% by position...
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switch your 3bet pop up stat from old style pop-up to the preflop default in player preferences
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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No don't 3 bet just because it makes your life easier.
If you are 3 betting an utg raiser it's because you are gonna get called by worse / can get it all in preflop ahead more often than not. Very doubtful that that's the case here.
You should have a better idea of his 3 betting range / dynamic before you consider doing anything other than folding.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i would call, i don't understand shoving vs what seems like a smart player squeezing a utg open.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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i agree with not 3betting pre, very few taggs open UTG and play back hard at UTG+1 or CO 3bets with junk... i'm generally 3betting QQ+/AK against tagg UTG raises UNLESS they specifically call 3bets with a wide range AND don't 4bet much (then 3bet liberally w TT/JJ/AQ etc )
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I think in this spot after shoving a few times I realized that people are not usually squeezing TT and calling a shove, and just call with worse hands like that
so a call is probably better
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Yeah I'm sure you can play super profitably going call call preflop... Good luck with that.
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Kid Style
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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Thanks everyone! Bleh, I just love these tough decisions in poker...even pre-flop will fry your brain like scrambled eggs.
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The Izebox
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: bronx new york
Posts: 255
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I dont know of theres one right answer here. I always three bet jacks preflop so ive never been in this position before...so what did you end up doing anyway?
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Me? I always tell the truth.
Even when I lie.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by meeloche
Yeah I'm sure you can play super profitably going call call preflop... Good luck with that.
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In position, sure
we're keeping his range wide and we're probably going to call or raise his cbet, depending on the board
we probably get value from people who cbet once in 3b pots and give up
against people who barrel a lot in 3b pots we can probably take one off on the flop with an overpair and call turn jam
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Izebox
I dont know of theres one right answer here. I always three bet jacks preflop so ive never been in this position before...so what did you end up doing anyway?
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this is one of those leaks someone was talking about in another thread. auto default 3betting JJ, especially vs an UTG raiser is not going to be a profitable play vs the majority of villains.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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calling pre is better then 3betting here imo.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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The Izebox
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: bronx new york
Posts: 255
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bode-
But if im making a good profit off of it (2.54 big bets per hand), then why is it "a major leak"?
I thought a leak was something that made you lose money...man this poker thing is hard! 
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Me? I always tell the truth.
Even when I lie.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Izebox
bode-
But if im making a good profit off of it (2.54 big bets per hand), then why is it "a major leak"?
I thought a leak was something that made you lose money...man this poker thing is hard! |
no, a leak could be something that makes you less money than you would have otherwise made
I mean a donk is probably positive on AA, but does that mean they play it right?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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think about it as one way makes 2.54 but another makes 12.54
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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