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Silly String
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12-30-2008, 08:05 PM
Post subject: ISF's new format: post flop play for polarized 3betting OOP
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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I just saw the post about your new idea for recommended HH formats. I like the idea so here's my stab at it:
What is a good postflop plan after 3betting a polarized hand, OOP, to a mostly unknown positionally aware Tighty & getting called?
Say hero has T9s & flops medium strength hand with no draw
Flop comes: K97s. T42r
How about a whiff: AK7s
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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bode
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12-30-2008, 08:55 PM
Post subject: Re: ISF's new format: post flop play for polarized 3betting
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#2 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
Say hero has T9s & flops medium strength hand with no draw
Flop comes: K97s. T42r
How about a whiff: AK7s
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I think you meant to say "What is a good postflop plan after 3betting a polarized range."
As for the flop scenarios. I'm cbetting both the flops that i hit to try and take down a pretty nice pot already with what will be the best hand a good amount of the time. The K97s flop especially. We can usually eliminate AK from villains range as most people will do what they can to get it in pre so it sees all 5 cards. We have mid pair + a backdoor FD and will have the best hand here quite a bit. If we are behind to a K or TT-QQ, we also have atleast reasonable equity in the pot to catch up.
Im also more likely to fire at the K high flop because in general A high and K high flops are going to hit less of villains 3bet calling range here so we can take down the pot even with the 2nd best hand occasionally. I'm cbetting the last flop that we whiff for this reason also.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Kinda, actually I meant one of the hands out of a polarized range that makes the range polar, i.e. 87s or 44.
Anyway, jeez you cbetting monkey! I guess I wondered when is it appropriate to take our foot off of the gas since we have a solid hand with showdown value and are only getting called/raised by better hands.
Maybe this theory only applies IP since OOP we are giving up control of the hand and playing weak?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I'm interested in other replies in here.
For now I fully agree with Bode's post.
Bode, are you b/fing or b/cing(shoving) the T42r board?
If it's very opponent specific, could you please mention some aspects you look at?
What if it's an general TAG that you have little history with in these spots, but of which you know COULD be shoving like AQ some of the time and also has AA/KK in his range with some frequency?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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The first thing you want to ask yourself is how strong or weak your opponents threebet calling range is. The 2nd thing you want to ask yourself is how strong or weak your range is. Now without making a bajillion page post, I'll say this: If heroes range is much weaker than our opponents, then we want to keep the pot small and see as many streets as possible. If our range is stronger than our opponents range, cbetting and bulding pots is a great strategy. Regarding the different flops.
K97, (There are soooooo many factors to talk about so dont go thinking its as cut and dry as this), if my range is weaker than my opponents, or vice versa, i'm checking this flop everytime, unless there's some overwhelming factor to sway us otherwise. You just dont want to build a pot for your whole stack when if that happens your losing.
T42 is a little trickier. If your opponent has a relatively weakish threebet call range (maybe say 22+, KJ+, sc's), I'd cbet this for a few reasons. One, its a range that misses our opponent a lot and therefore we are going to cbet it a lot as a bluff. Secondly, there are a lot of hands that we can easily take a two street bet check bet value line against (AK/AQ, 55,33,54,66,77,88,99).
Now if our opponents range is stronger than ours and relatively strongish (88, AJ+) I'd be much more inclined to check this since we cant easily get two streets and may get bluffed off easily by a raised cbet. I think were less likely to get bluffed off from a two barrel after we check this flop. Let me make this clear: Versus a tight 3bet call range, WE ARE NOT wanting to stack off with T9 here.
Lastly, AK7, I have learned to love checking these flops since we have no equity and its such a good cbet board. Some people tend to assume you have a hand when you check this board, and you get to take the turn away with a bet more easily.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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All I have to say is the quality of posts and responses in 6-max forum lately has just been incredible. Iowa, I'm in awe of you and nuts for your quality, detailed analysis. much thanks.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
K97, (There are soooooo many factors to talk about so dont go thinking its as cut and dry as this), if my range is weaker than my opponents, or vice versa, i'm checking this flop everytime, unless there's some overwhelming factor to sway us otherwise. You just dont want to build a pot for your whole stack when if that happens your losing.
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wording confusion. do you mean to say regardless of who's range is stronger you are checking this flop?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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I thiiiiiink he's saying that if it's close he's betting, but if it's really far off in either way he's not. Makes sense I think, if v is way strong you're pwned, and if he's way weak you're not getting money except vs the strong part and you might get bluffed off. I'm not thinking too much about it atm but that still leaves me wondering why it's nice to bet when the ranges are close. Maybe just cuz it gives villain a tough choice.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i got owned by ISF
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Lastly, AK7, I have learned to love checking these flops since we have no equity and its such a good cbet board. Some people tend to assume you have a hand when you check this board, and you get to take the turn away with a bet more easily.
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love this, but the only problem is that we will have to start checking AA/KK/AK on this board some to balance, which isnt the greatest. When we have AA/KK/AK on an AKx board and have the board crushed we get looked up lighter some just for the fact that its such a good board to cbet in a 3bet pot and villains expect us to fire our entire range usually.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
i got owned by ISF
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Lastly, AK7, I have learned to love checking these flops since we have no equity and its such a good cbet board. Some people tend to assume you have a hand when you check this board, and you get to take the turn away with a bet more easily.
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love this, but the only problem is that we will have to start checking AA/KK/AK on this board some to balance, which isnt the greatest. When we have AA/KK/AK on an AKx board and have the board crushed we get looked up lighter some just for the fact that its such a good board to cbet in a 3bet pot and villains expect us to fire our entire range usually. |
I disagree that we have to balance our checking range on this board. I think its rare you are going to find a player that will "exploit" your checking range by bombing two or three streets everytime you check. I don't mind checking AA/KK/AK on this board versus a handful of players, but it brings serious deficiency to our cbetting range if we do, which can easily become a huge mistake.
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