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noble007

08-22-2009, 12:26 AM Post subject: ISF Theory Question

#1 (permalink)

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Should we Lead 100% of medium connected flops as the Pre-flop caller?

I've already noticed the PFR myself included often checking these
6x8s9s board because we know that it hits alot of the PFC's range.
(I think they/me are applying the ISF theorem bluffing (C-Betting) less when our range is behind the PFC)

So it stands to reason as the PFC (I currently don't do much leading) that I could lead 100% of these flops because my range is usually stronger than the PFR?

I don't know maybe you guys already do this, currently I play back at PFR more on these flops by CR but they tend to check behind alot of weak hands for PC and CB a fairly balanced range on these flops.

(* ISF You won't remember but I replied to some old thread that got bumped awhile ago where I layed into some plays you made against some donk down at 200NL, Sorry, it's nothing to you I'm sure but I just suddenly felt guilty about it now that I'm asking you a question about ISF, esp. as some of my comments were pretty ignorant.)

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IowaSkinsFan

08-22-2009, 05:30 AM

#2 (permalink)

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If we're talking about 6 max and a loose button raises and we call from the SB, our range is likely going to be stronger than our opponents range. Does that mean we should lead the flop 100%? No. Does that mean we want the pot to build? Yes. If opp is cbetting this flop a majority of the time i'd much prefer checking most of our range, possibly leading some sort of air range although im not sure what that may be. The cool part is on a 987 board when we c/r or we lead if we get a call opps range is likely going to contain a lot of hands he doesnt want to stack off with, and therefore we can make some cool bluffs.

If he's UTG and were in the BB/SB I wouldn't say our range is stronger than his. Same MP and BB. HU if were the BB I don't think there's really anything we can take from ISF theorem. It will help more on the turn or river.

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noble007

08-22-2009, 06:52 AM

#3 (permalink)

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"The cool part is on a 987 board when we c/r or we lead if we get a call opps range is likely going to contain a lot of hands he doesnt want to stack off with, and therefore we can make some cool bluffs. "-That is a cool point (I need to work out on my later street bluffing and the 'why', cuz right now it's pure spew.)

Yeah you're right, I was thinking if a 20% PFR villain put us on a main range that was like 22-99 and medium SC's but that only really happens in position. (Like UTG+1/CO raises we call in CO/OTB)

Then in his mind we would have a 2pr+ hand a whopping 20% of the time we would also have a big draw (pair & Straight draw, Flush draw and pair etc. another 20% of the time) so even if we raised/lead/CR a huge 60% of the time villain couldn't raise us as bluff because our stack-off range is too strong. So he has to fold a huge portion of his hands 50-60% & even when he does get it in his stack off range of 4% sets 5% Draw 10% overpair is being crushed by our two pair 5% Set 14% range.

So leading/betting/raising an obscene amount gets him to fold a huge amount of his air and get it in lighter than he should for value.

But if we don't take this obscene raising or leading approach we usually fold at least 40% of our range to his bets which makes a CB profitable for villain which is what usually happens, but I was thinking on these textures where our core range is much stronger it gives us the license to bluff more and villain is forced to bluff less because his range is weaker or else he would be paying us off too much.

I get that usually you want to check to the raiser as the pre-flop caller and not lead with any strong range because you don't want to take away his CB but I think that's because your range will usually be weaker (i.e. you'll have to fold 40-50% of it to a CB) so when you actually have a decent hand you dont want to take away the PFR opportunity to CB.

Is my thinking at least on the right track but the reality is that we are unlikely to be in a situation where our range is as strong vs. the PFR as the one I'm describing?

Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..

Numbr2intheWorld

08-23-2009, 08:57 AM

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Keep in mind that ISF theorem has to do with stack off ranges, which means that you have to be betting multiple streets with the board unchanged for you to actually be "ahead."

If someone is cbetting a lot you can stack off faster with a c/r so doing that as a bluff can be good (you'll probably need to follow through and it needs to be against someone you think who can fold). A lot of people will check behind 987 boards though, and also not fold to leads with any piece, which to anyone who knows anything about how to play poker means we should lead.

I mean it's not really isf theorem its just playing some poker.

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noble007

08-23-2009, 03:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Thanks yeah I think I didn't get the stack off range element of ISF theorem.

I thought is was just your range is behind bluff less or your range is ahead bluff more, but yeah that's just poker.

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IowaSkinsFan

08-23-2009, 08:50 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by noble007

Thanks yeah I think I didn't get the stack off range element of ISF theorem.

I thought is was just your range is behind bluff less or your range is ahead bluff more, but yeah that's just poker.

Well when I first made the post I emphasized stack off ranges because I didn't understand it totally myself, but yes, a factor in deciding what to do during a hand is whether your range is ahead or behind your opponents, and if its ahead you want the pot to build, and if its behind you want to keep the pot small. Other factors may override this factor but ofc you take it into consideration.

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