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Jager
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02-18-2007, 08:08 PM
Post subject: An interesting problem...
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Here is the scoop. I usually play late at night 12am est - 5isham est. During these times I run around 7 ptbb/100 over 150k hands. Lately I have been playing during the early am 7-12, and in the afternoon. During these times I have marginal and big lossing sessions. I also have a lot of trouble on the weekend. I have lost money every weekend since December. Recently I have noticed that when the table VPIP hits 30+, I start losing a lot of small to medium pots and more big ones to suckouts. Late night it is hard to see a table with a VPIP 25+. I think that I have learned to play and beat the tough regular players, but I have no idea how to beat the fish. My tables usually have 1-2 fish which I usually get to before the Tags do. This has been real evident the last 2 weeks when I have been playing a 25/20 game, which I have been killing with late at night. When its me and 4-5 fish I get smoked. In summary I am killing most tables under 25 % VPIP and getting killed when the VPIP hits 30+. Is this part of the whole changing gears thing that I haven't been able to understand? Do I need to tighten down and play a 16/13 type game in these spots, maybe even tighter? Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Very peculiar problem.. but to quote 2+2 "beating good players and beating fish are two different skillsets". Have you tried being more weak/tight postflop? I don't think tightening up preflop is the right way to deal with bad players.. you want to play lots of pots with them..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Weird cause late at night is where my tables are super bad like 30+ vpip, and i see a lot of 90/40 type players, seriously that bad.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I get most of my value out of the bad players and I just nit it up. If you can beat the good players you should play higher.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Hmm a few months ago I would have said ‘Bollocks’ but now I fully understand you. I run well against your standard TAG’s but run badly against the 80/1 or 45/30 players. Its just not suckouts but over the weekend during the day (European weekend and evening/night on Pokerroom) I ran really badly. Often I found myself against lots of limpers and I raise it up on the button with e.g. QQ and get many callers with J4s or 59o who then hit some miracle hand.
I tightened up considerably but then they started folding as soon as I was raising it up. It was a nightmare couple of days. The only thing I have found out is a) its OK to open-limp often as they will not play back at you and b) fold when they start betting OOP. I hate playing this way but that was the only way to save me from smashing my laptop up.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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try 16/12 against the loose fishy tables.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I get most of my value out of the bad players and I just nit it up. If you can beat the good players you should play higher.
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I tried to move up this week and ran real bad, lost 8 buy-ins in 2k hands, I played great though all bad beats and some variance(AKv QQ type stuff). I only started playing 6 max after the legislation, so maybe I never learned to beat the fish. There seems to be a difference of opinion about tightening up preflop?? Also any idea on the skillset for beating the different types of high VPIP fish??
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I get most of my value out of the bad players and I just nit it up. If you can beat the good players you should play higher.
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I tried to move up this week and ran real bad, lost 8 buy-ins in 2k hands, I played great though all bad beats and some variance(AKv QQ type stuff). I only started playing 6 max after the legislation, so maybe I never learned to beat the fish. There seems to be a difference of opinion about tightening up preflop?? Also any idea on the skillset for beating the different types of high VPIP fish?? |
Play more pots with them, they tend to call you down with some of the worst pairs so second barrels don't work on them. I'll give you pointers on hot to beat the fish if you give me pointers on how to extract value from tags.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Why would you ever tighten up at a loose table?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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note im refering to cash games.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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its just variance, you arent better than the good players and worse than the bad players
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
its just variance, you arent better than the good players and worse than the bad players
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Not saying that I am 'better', just that when there is only 1 maybe 2 loose players I end up HU post flop against the fish a lot more when the rest of the table has is 12-18vpip/8-14pfr. Their is only one other 'regular' I see at 100 running a 20+ PFR, and there are less than 5 others I see with a PFR over 15. This leads to me vs. the lone Fish a lot. If I get one of the Tags to come along, most of them don't float, so they either hit or go away. When I raise at a loose table I am getting 2+ callers every hand to the flop. They don't ever all fold and someone usually draws out at least 2 pair. I have no plan when this happens, I bet when I hit and either get raised or get outdrawn. I check weak holdings and give free cards, then I get outdrawn. I feel that I am in a no win situation. I am not used to playing all these multiway pots, where I have no idea what hand villains hold because they play a 35/2 game, pot control or lack there of only gets you so far.
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thnwkd
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 436
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play poker....read & adjust
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Success is how high you bounce after hitting bottom.
IslandGrinder
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Jager,
Based on my observation, you certainly do match-up a lot better against different sorts of opponents. You tend to just focus on playing your game.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Jager,
Based on my observation, you certainly do match-up a lot better against different sorts of opponents. You tend to just focus on playing your game.
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I think this is a compliment?!?!? So then I do need to learn to adjust better to table conditions? When I am playing bad I try to concentrate on playing my game and make good reads, is this a leak? Also interesting to note, I had a 2p2 reguar(15/12 player) tell me that he avoids me if at all possible.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Maybe as a training exercice move down to a level with plenty of these high vpip fishes and learn to play em there?..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
I had a 2p2 reguar(15/12 player) tell me that he avoids me if at all possible.
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If you didn't know me very well, you'd be very easy money.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Maybe as a training exercice move down to a level with plenty of these high vpip fishes and learn to play em there?..
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25NL at around 4AM is entirely 80/40s. Its great fun!
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Jager, it sounds like variance. Either tighten up, or accept it will happen.
My favorite is when they call the turn with OESD, then call the river when they catch a pair, even though there are 2 higher cards on the board.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I'm not sure you mean it, but the supposition that all 30+ VP players are fish is a dangerous one. A couple of good laggs in there who you can't differentiate from the fish, and you'll be making bad calls and raising at the wrong times often enough to wonder where your stacks are going.
Tags, or even nits from the stats you mention, are easy to play against because, by and large, they play honest poker. When they play, you have to have the cards or you have to be able to make the bets when you sense weakness. Against laggs, you're in a tougher spot - perhaps you feel the need to make marginal or sub-optimal plays against players you *perceive* as bad, but you're not getting the balance right?
I say all the above because I am exactly the same as you. I can win against mediocre Taggs because when I am not controlling a pot, I get out of the way. But this obviously isn't going to work against Laggs, and I'm only slowly becoming comfortable with playing them.
The key is finding the spots to play back. If these spots are only when you have the nuts, then a half-decent lagg will simply fold and go back to stealing the next hand. But if you 3-bet pre-flop, check/call and then donk the turn, or check-raise or push when they're not expecting it, you'll make them think twice about bullying you.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i can see why you are beating up the regs, im not wholly sure how you arent/dont beat the fishies although i can think of spots where i think you spew a lot/call too much and that was from 450 observed hands.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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I can relate to this pretty well.
I built by BR playing 27/22 during the B2B bonus-whoring days and ran at like 173892730821 ptBB/100 just outaggressing the regs. The fish drove me crazy since they never folded and I rarely stopped betting. Plus it tilted me when I got called down by bottom pair.
I suggest that when fish are at the table you try to see lots of flops and overbet your big hands a lot. The fish that can't believe you have anything when you 2 and 3 barrel employ similar reasoning when you bet 50 into a 20$ pot after hitting your gutshot.
Don't expect the good players to pay you off but in my experience this is the simplest way to take a fish's money (limp behind lots when there are 1/2 fish limpers in early position). Also make lots of small stabs at pots with gutshots/air so fish think you're FOS.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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also I think it's entirely possible to pwn regs and get pwned by fish. Lots of times you're "telling a story".
The ppl who try to figure out your story will have a much tougher time vs you than the ppl who think "zomg i have a pair".
Other reason for this is that at the lower limits, the regs usually have lots of fish they can take money from and convince themselves they don't need to make marginal stands vs strong players.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I am not saying that all 30+ VPIP players are fish, I am saying that I have noticed when the table VPIP hits 30+ I tend to start losing. I appreciate the support, I thought I was going to get blasted for this post.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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hahaha completely different skill set. Basically against reallly bad players you need to call more often and 3bet less and then vbet vbet vbet. Against the aggro ones you should check 3 streets fairly often and call down with any pair. I could go on and on but basically Cbet much less also and realize that bluffing and positional 3betting is just going to get you into trouble. Flop big and value bet and try to hide ur disbelief at what u get called down with. Sauce.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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^^^^^ very good post. I agree with it.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
hahaha completely different skill set. Basically against reallly bad players you need to call more often and 3bet less and then vbet vbet vbet. Against the aggro ones you should check 3 streets fairly often and call down with any pair. I could go on and on but basically Cbet much less also and realize that bluffing and positional 3betting is just going to get you into trouble. Flop big and value bet and try to hide ur disbelief at what u get called down with. Sauce.
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I don't know if you remember my post a while ago Jager about the trouble I was having playing the trash that inhibits the Ongame network. But Sauce123 basically summed up the whole startegy that I use and I find it works very well.
In short, get in cheap, and then start pumping up the pot when you see something you like.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
hahaha completely different skill set. Basically against reallly bad players you need to call more often and 3bet less and then vbet vbet vbet. Against the aggro ones you should check 3 streets fairly often and call down with any pair. I could go on and on but basically Cbet much less also and realize that bluffing and positional 3betting is just going to get you into trouble. Flop big and value bet and try to hide ur disbelief at what u get called down with. Sauce.
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This is how I approach playing most fish, but I run into trouble with constant multiway pots where its me and 2 guys who don't fold.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
hahaha completely different skill set. Basically against reallly bad players you need to call more often and 3bet less and then vbet vbet vbet. Against the aggro ones you should check 3 streets fairly often and call down with any pair. I could go on and on but basically Cbet much less also and realize that bluffing and positional 3betting is just going to get you into trouble. Flop big and value bet and try to hide ur disbelief at what u get called down with. Sauce.
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This is how I approach playing most fish, but I run into trouble with constant multiway pots where its me and 2 guys who don't fold. |
This is what turned me into an aggro person to a nit now. It has its benefits but also has problems which i'm trying to figure out.
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