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Ideas on how to extract more value in this spot?

  
 
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Marshall28
Old 06-08-2009, 12:02 PM     Post subject: Ideas on how to extract more value in this spot? #1 (permalink)  
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No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($215.05)
MP ($468.30)
Button ($200)
Hero (SB) ($306)
BB ($200)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
1 fold, MP calls $2, Button bets $6, Hero raises $19, 2 folds, Button calls $14

Flop: ($44) 6, 7, K (2 players)
Hero bets $26, Button calls $26

Turn: ($96) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $45, 1 fold

Total pot: $96

Villain A2S = 45%, Fold to 3bet = 30%, 4bet range = 6.6%

This is a spot I come across a ton, and I find that my 3b bluff --> double barrel as a bluff on K high (or A high) boards frequency tends to be VERY high. Reason being I get SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many folds. Seriously I bet my opponents fold 90% of the time or greater when I double barrel a board like this after 3betting.

So my question is, do you guys have any comments or ideas as to how to increase the value I get the times I do have it here. Should I not worry about sacrificing balance and sometimes go for a check and a half pot to 3/4 vb on river? Or should I try something goofy like betting less than half pot to try to induce?

I guess my question is, how important do you think balance is in these spots and how much of it do you think I can sacrifice in attempt to make more money here?
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PokerBookie
Old 06-08-2009, 05:33 PM #2 (permalink)  
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You may have left some money out there. From what I can see with this hand, a good move may have been to check the turn. I am almost sure the villain in this case may have took a stab at this pot. You may have got an extra $20-$40. I am not saying slow play every hand to death like many are doing on the tables right now. Just give some players in this situation the chance to hang themselves so to speak.

No reason to hit the flop TPTK and bet out strong every time you do. Once you start giving enough rope, you will find that other players at the table are happy to pull it.
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ATOTHEC101
Old 06-08-2009, 06:48 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Meh, I don't see another way tbh, specially cause your agro and will need to balance for the times your 2 barreling this board with air. I also make it $24 pre.
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daven
Old 06-08-2009, 07:09 PM     Post subject: Re: Ideas on how to extract more value in this spot? #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall28
This is a spot I come across a ton, and I find that my 3b bluff --> double barrel as a bluff on K high (or A high) boards frequency tends to be VERY high. Reason being I get SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many folds. Seriously I bet my opponents fold 90% of the time or greater when I double barrel a board like this after 3betting.
wow, this is exactly the situation you described in the 3-bet thread you started.

Why not start to mix your play when you DO have it = check turn 50% with the made hand to induce or get a river call, check turn 0% with the crap hand. People will still see you betting the made hands when they call, and would need a huge sample to appropriately adjust....
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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dsaxton
Old 06-08-2009, 08:00 PM #5 (permalink)  
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As far as balance is concerned, being able to credibly bet strongly on the river after the turn checks through can also be good. This may even be better than betting the turn when you have nothing in a lot of situations.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:41 PM     Post subject: Re: Ideas on how to extract more value in this spot? #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall28
This is a spot I come across a ton, and I find that my 3b bluff --> double barrel as a bluff on K high (or A high) boards frequency tends to be VERY high. Reason being I get SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many folds. Seriously I bet my opponents fold 90% of the time or greater when I double barrel a board like this after 3betting.
wow, this is exactly the situation you described in the 3-bet thread you started.

Why not start to mix your play when you DO have it = check turn 50% with the made hand to induce or get a river call, check turn 0% with the crap hand. People will still see you betting the made hands when they call, and would need a huge sample to appropriately adjust....
no, they just need to see you check AK in this spot once to get an idea of what you're doing since obv you're going to sometimes bet here anyway (they won't assume you always do it)

that said, not everyone will adjust correctly
but the adjustment is obvious, don't call a river bet when he checks turn on a board he'd like to barrel with air
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mixchange
Old 06-08-2009, 09:21 PM     Post subject: Re: Ideas on how to extract more value in this spot? #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall28

I guess my question is, how important do you think balance is in these spots and how much of it do you think I can sacrifice in attempt to make more money here?

I don't think balance is important at all unless you play with the person frequently. I like checking or making a small turn bet... on this board especially his flop calling range is actually a pretty small number of pairs and TPWK, but mostly pairs, which hate the K.


I just like going in villain's head, do what is optimal versus that.
To me on this board when he flats 3b and flop He is hoping you are on Ax (non AK) or other broadways, but when you bet turn strong it confirms to him that you are connected strongly.

If you check turn, the answer to his "flop call question" is that you may have air (in his eyes, im not trying to read what it always means to me). I think he will often make a defensive bet in response... but some villains are also just hoping to get to showdown with 99 and might even check turn and fold river. But I think the guys just looking to showdown were only looking to call 1 bet anyway

tons of these BvB 3b spots end on the turn with the 3bettor check/folding turn, make it seem like a routine and comfortable spot for him.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 06-08-2009, 10:13 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
As far as balance is concerned, being able to credibly bet strongly on the river after the turn checks through can also be good. This may even be better than betting the turn when you have nothing in a lot of situations.
I'm GLAD someone is thinking this way, its clearly the most important part of the hand.

Although balance wise I think betting the turn is better, this is certainly a pretty decent spot for a two or three barrel with a decent draw.

If someone is betting the turn very thinly to protect their hands if checked to, i'd c/r for sure. Also if they float a lot.
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