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I suxorz at playing OOP

  
 
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Silly String
Old 12-30-2008, 06:50 PM     Post subject: I suxorz at playing OOP #1 (permalink)  
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Silly String
Reads: Unremarkable Tag running 20/15 & positionally aware. Cbets 88% over smallish sample.
I'm running my usual TagNit 21/16/2.5ish.
Problem: How do I extract more from OOP?
I prefer to just call TT OOP vs a somewhat tight opener, but I don't know how to extract the maximum. Please help with a line.
I assume I should be donking this type hand but I'll leave my details for later in the discussion.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($63.20)
MP ($126.20)
CO ($104.55)
Button ($33.90)
Hero (SB) ($133.75)
BB ($31.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10
1 fold, MP raises $4, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($9) J, 7, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $6, Hero calls $6

Turn: ($21) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($21) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

Total pot: $21
Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
 
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nutsinho
Old 12-30-2008, 08:58 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 i think you played it fine. such is the nature of being out of position. id likely bet for value with QdJx but I think the Td does better as a bluff catcher than a value bet here.
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Silly String
Old 12-30-2008, 09:09 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I have a real problem identifying when to donkbet. I need to incorporate some leading into my repertoire, but I'm having trouble identifying those spots.
I am probably going to begin a thread about donking in ISF's suggested format. Until then I thought this hand might serve as a guide to foster discussion. Maybe I should have changed the turn to a 2. Would that have changed anyone's opinion?
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dalecooper
Old 12-31-2008, 12:25 AM #4 (permalink)  
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I basically never donk here. You have a hand with good value - it's best a lot and also has outs vs. everything - but it's not the nuts and you don't want to run him off if he has nothing. Check/call the flop is the best play vs. this kind of player with a standard raising range and high c-bet %. Later streets are standard to a fault considering the cards that came.

As far as when is a good time to lead, I don't do it much in heads up pots vs. standard TAggs. It has its uses vs. regs you see a lot and as a change-up play, but against random Joe Taggfishes, I don't really see the point in most situations. In multi-way pots or against LAggs, or with a particularly wet board, then yes, the donk bet has its function.
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meeloche
Old 12-31-2008, 03:02 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
I have a real problem identifying when to donkbet. I need to incorporate some leading into my repertoire, but I'm having trouble identifying those spots.
I am probably going to begin a thread about donking in ISF's suggested format. Until then I thought this hand might serve as a guide to foster discussion. Maybe I should have changed the turn to a 2. Would that have changed anyone's opinion?
I would only donk pure air and a monster I however do either rarely. Donking a marginal hand is bad cause you'll have to fold to a raise and you can't bluff catch when you do that.

In this hand i think your line is fine. I may bet the turn if it was a blank. It would depend on how aggro villain was or passive etc.



 
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Silly String
Old 12-31-2008, 01:17 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I've been thinking a lot about the c/c flop, lead turn line ever since XTR(maybe it was VI-zero, sorry bad memory) posted a thread about it a couple months ago. His contention is that most people fold to turn raises in that situation b/c you would never take that line with a monster. I tend to agree, but I do see a time when it might make sense, i.e. the board just got a lot more drawy, or blank hits and you know villian is checking behind whiffed overs. What do others think of that line? How do you react vs that line with TPGK or an underPP like 88?
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dalecooper
Old 12-31-2008, 02:30 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I raise it a lot vs. a by-the-book TAgg type player, for the very reason you explained. The line feels weak by nature - if you can say that various betting lines are communicating something (either something true, or a bluff), what this line communicates is "I have a little something that I'd like to show down, and I suspect your hand isn't that good - so why don't you just concede this pot now? Or maybe call and we can both check on the river?" I feel like this is usually a line people take with 88-TT on a board with one over (usually a jack or queen, something non-threatening). So when they communicate this, I like to communicate back, "Sorry bud, I've got those aces or kings you are worried about. Fold now." (Which of course means just calling the turn when you DO have aces or kings is a better line - but that's getting into a different discussion.)

Because of my good experiences with getting people who take this line to fold, I don't do it much myself. When I do, it's usually to mix things up with a monster vs. someone aggressive - or as a bluff against a really weak player who won't read it properly.
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