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I suck Hypothetically speaking

  
 
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Silly String
Old 01-23-2007, 11:02 PM     Post subject: I suck Hypothetically speaking #1 (permalink)  
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Hypothetical situation for 100NL:
MP is an aggressive TAG 25/12/4

MP limps, Hero raises to $4 with J T on button. BB calls, MP limper calls.
Flop: J 4 J
BB checks, MP fires $6, Hero??

Does the approach change if he is a spewy LAG?
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THaC
Old 01-23-2007, 11:09 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Flatting here is pretty standard for me - you fold out worse hands by raising the flop - your villain is an aggressive player and will probably bet the turn, and if called, will probably bet the river. If he's a spewy LAG, he'll do the same most likely.

Against these types, I usually let them hang themselves.

Also, raising folds out the BB here, something we don't wanna do as he could overcall with 99 or some midpair.
 
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zenbitz
Old 01-24-2007, 12:26 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Does calling here with BB to act on a dry board really show less strength than raising?

I guess it does, but no matter what you do (other than fold, duh) you are scaring any player with a clue. I guess since overcards are a big part of his range, he might catch something on the turn and check/call or bet.
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nutsinho
Old 01-24-2007, 12:47 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 callll
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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Genitruc
Old 01-24-2007, 01:08 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 I'd raise this all day, especially if he's a spewy lag

If he flat calls and c/raises the turn, you'll have something to think about. Besides that, just try and built the pot.

edit : especially if he's aggressive in the sense "not likely to put opponents on nuts" and thinks deep. Since you punished limpers, you're much more likely doing this thinking HE doesn't have a jack and he's likely doing this thinking YOU don't have a jack. He'll also (like most ppl replying in this thread) think "why raise if he has a jack?"... And btw, after raising the flop, you can get a lot of value out of his medium-strength holdings by checking the turn and potting the river.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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swiggidy
Old 01-24-2007, 03:23 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 uhh, do Agressive Tags open limp/call much?
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benny999
Old 01-24-2007, 04:27 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I like raising more than calling with and without trips.
beside what genitruc wrote, I think it has a similar value as calling but works out better if he folds (possibly getting frustrated) and you make a big hand again later, or for a later bluff if he looks you up this time with something worse.
of course it's good to not always raise to be less predictable, but I would more than not.
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Silly String
Old 01-24-2007, 01:49 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Does our opinion change if board reads this:

Hypothetical situation for 100NL:
MP is an aggressive TAG 25/12/4

MP limps, Hero raises to $4 with J T on button. BB calls, MP limper calls.
Flop: J 4 J
BB checks, MP fires $6, Hero??

Now do more people raise? How much? I would think to $20.
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bode
Old 01-24-2007, 03:33 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 i hate blowing people off worse hands here, but i think i raise in both instances. Most thinking players will think along the lines Genitruc said, but especially at lowers stakes, players will read this as being strong.
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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jo
Old 01-24-2007, 05:50 PM #10 (permalink)  
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In the first situation, I like raising more than calling. Calling here is a very aggressive move, as there is no draw, and pretty much all you'll be calling with is a J. Indeed, when this flop has missed you, its a good spot for a bluff call against the right opponent.

In the second hand, there's more of an argument for calling, as it looks more like a flush draw than a J. But then again, if HE has the draw you can charge him for it.
I think it boils down to why do you think he lead out. If he's bluffing with air, you're unlikely to get much out of him either way. If he bets his draws you may charge him more by raising. If he value bets his mid-pockets in this situation you may get more out of him by calling.
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nutsinho
Old 01-24-2007, 06:01 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 sklansky explains why calling is better but i dont have the text with me right now

Jo, we've raised preflop so calling is not an "aggressive" ( i think you mean strong) move at all. I would call here on the no-draw flop with absolutely any pair 55+ and sometimes AK or AQ
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jo
Old 01-24-2007, 06:37 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Nuts: Hmm, with the range you mentioned I'd be raising not calling, because too many cards can hurt you on the turn/river.

That's why I thought calling was a 'stronger' move, because it shows that you're not afraid of a free card (and hence why I would raise not call).
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dsaxton
Old 01-24-2007, 06:44 PM #13 (permalink)  
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As nuts said, a call on this flop represents a jack, any pocket pair or sometimes even as little as ace high. Against an opponent who thinks, a raise represents the type of hand we have at a minimum.

I really see no reason to raise, personally.
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nutsinho
Old 01-24-2007, 06:52 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jo
Nuts: Hmm, with the range you mentioned I'd be raising not calling, because too many cards can hurt you on the turn/river.

That's why I thought calling was a 'stronger' move, because it shows that you're not afraid of a free card (and hence why I would raise not call).
raising hurts when your opponent is ahead, and also allows him to fold most of his 2nd best hands. you want your opponent to make a mistake or combination of mistakes OR avoid making a mistake yourself in the hand that costs more than giving him a free card. Given most villains' ranges for donking this flop it is usually considerably better to call. On a flop where you had more potential to be outdrawn if youre ahead right now (large majority of flops) it could be better to raise.
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Genitruc
Old 01-24-2007, 08:18 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 My reasons for raising have a lot to do with my image (I raise a lot of paired flops with air and am generally annoying) so I'd have to say it depends on your image. I'll try to be more specific next time in my initial response.

Nonetheless, I like raising the flop and checking behind on the turn (unless I have a history with villain) as a default play since :

-your hand is strong let's get some monies in the pot

-if you flat call and villain is thinking he'll check/fold a lot of turns OOP

-when you raise and check behind on the turn villain will typically think "huh? o.k. he can't have a jack"

-if you're outmonstered underfull vs trips or Jx with better kicker, checking behind on the turn gets you to the river cheaply, where you can pretty optimally flat call villain's bet or pot it when checked to (ppl look you up with all kinds of shit when you check behind on the turn)

Obv none of this applies if I'm playing vs a fish who'll stack off with 99 or some crap or vs a super aggro who likes to get in raising wars.

Last thing is raising the flop makes it a pretty easy fold if a solid villain flop 3-bets you .
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Silly String
Old 01-24-2007, 08:22 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Genitruc, what if he calls the flop-raise and bets 3/4's of the pot into you on a blank turn when you're holding JT?
Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
 
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Genitruc
Old 01-24-2007, 08:28 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 call and stack off slowly, sometimes against the right villain (who simply won't do this without at least Jx) I call turn and fold to river push but it depends on how deep we are.

edit : if villain is rarely getting out of line postflop, a pretty strong case can also be made for folding the turn in scenario you mentioned above. good question.

Typically, though, when someone calls your flopraise they check to you on the turn since when they're weak, they're not smart enough to block-bet and when they're strong, they look to stack-a-donk you.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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