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minSim
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11-29-2009, 10:30 AM
Post subject: I sqeeuze and now YOU are repping the K ?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Villain 18/13 over a couple hands. Not enough hands to use the 3bet pot stats, but my general feeling was that villain was tight and his calling ranges on the stronger side.
He bet the river fast.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($51.10)
Button ($25)
SB ($62.80)
Hero (BB) ($52.70)
UTG ($59.25)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K , J
1 fold, MP bets $1.50, 1 fold, SB calls $1.25, Hero raises to $6.50, MP calls $5, 1 fold
Flop: ($14.50) 6 , 2, 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks
Turn: ($14.50) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks
River: ($14.50) K (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $9, Hero ?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i'd value bet the river myself for $9, but now just call. am i missing something?
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
i'd value bet the river myself for $9, but now just call. am i missing something?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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uh call
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,220
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Dunno bout anyone else, but I'm c-betting this flop. It's not the sorta board he gonna fuck about with you on very often and we should fold out all his better overcards and be able to barrel him on J Q K A turns profitably when called.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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What hands should I be giving villain?
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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Definitely c bet flop and be prepared to barrel a decent amount of turns.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Dragon Slayer
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 228
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Betting the flop cant be all bad. But ya I bet River for value. As played Call.
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Dex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bringing the mind home.
Posts: 172
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As played, call and don't even think twice if he shows you a better hand. You might reason that he's betting a better king here, and obv sometimes he will, but checking three streets after the pf action looks like you've either given up or you want to get to showdown asap (you might know it's a squeeze and don't like the call, but pf still looks pretty strong from you, so don't waste that momentum), and if I was villain I'd be betting sooooo much of my range on the river, especially anything unpaired that wouldn't have showdown value, to block a showdown when you fail to bet what should be a good card for you. Your line looks that weak. If he bets the king, he knows you're not gonna call with AJ/AQ and you obv don't have a pair or whatever, right?
At least if you lead this river, you force him to make a decision with whatever pair he was trying to get to showdown himself with. And in this situation, you should be leading this with a lot of the hands you got to the river with.
I agree with the comments suggesting betting the flop and looking to barrel at least the turn. At least this way you may get value out of AK floating the flop, and put midpairs to the test on the turn. An 18/13-like player is not going to like having to call down 2 or 3 streets here with a hand like 88 or 99 after the pf action.
If you are going to check the flop, barrel the turn and river so a missed flop c/r is in your range.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I couldn't come up with what worse hands he'd call with and what worse hands he'd check back 2 streets and then suddenly bet on like the worst cards for any hand worse then mine.
So I'm such a nit and c/f'ed. I thought it over and see how exploitable that is now. I'm betting this river with all my air hands so I sure should increase my valuerange and KJ is like the first hand to do so.
Also c/fing this specific hand would make me c/f any hand I'd check on the river as I was surely betting KQ+. That's all so overly exploitable that even if you don't want to think about balance you don't want to do that.
I also agree on cbetting. I can still easily two barrel 1/2psb's and give up after that.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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You seriously aren't this clueless after posting on these forums for months and months I'd hope...
Do you even know why you squeezed? ? ? Here's to hoping SB was a fish.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
I couldn't come up with what worse hands he'd call with and what worse hands he'd check back 2 streets and then suddenly bet on like the worst cards for any hand worse then mine.
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I think you just need to look at it from his perspective... "umm ok he's checked twice and now checked a K when he'd probably bet a K if he had it. I guess he's just giving up with this pot, so I'll bet"
And yah if I'm squeezing this hand and get this board I'm definitely barreling. This is NOT a good spot to JUST cbet imo.. he will call flop with a ton of hands, but will often fold these hands to further heat.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
I couldn't come up with what worse hands he'd call with and what worse hands he'd check back 2 streets and then suddenly bet on like the worst cards for any hand worse then mine.
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I think you just need to look at it from his perspective... "umm ok he's checked twice and now checked a K when he'd probably bet a K if he had it. I guess he's just giving up with this pot, so I'll bet" |
I really don't want to question what all you better players say, but why wouldn't he think the same at flop and/or turn?
It's pretty obvious that I'm giving up on the flop, if not definately on the turn, so why would anyone wait for a K river to be trying to get me of a hand, while I'm showing all the way that I don't have one?
Fwiw the most obvious hands for villains flop and turn combo imo are marginal made hands. But really even those I'd expect to be 'protecting' betting somewhere along and make no sense to start betting on a K.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Your flop check doesn't mean much. you could be going for pot control with a mid pair, you could be going for a c/r with a draw or overpair.
Turn check is a bit more telling, but you could still be going for a turn c/r that missed the flop c/r with both value hands and draws. You could be going for a c/c with a hand like AQ/AK. You probably would have lead your mid-pair type hands here though.
But once you check the river its pretty unlikely that you have the flush since you would have lead river or bet earlier. On a flush bringing K, its likely that you would lead a K instead of going for a c/r, so you prob don't have a K. So from his perspective, you don't have a midpair, you don't have a flush, and you don't have a K, which mostly leaves AQ/AJ type stuff. He could be betting hands like 9Tss, JTss, QJss etc here just trying to get you off a better A-high.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Dex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bringing the mind home.
Posts: 172
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^^^^ This.
One notable thing is that you mentioned in your original post that you feel villain's calling range pf is weighted strongly, but you didn't acknowledge how that range changes once it checks back the flop and turn. He has the opportunity to look at you the same way, that the strength of your range from preflop to river decreases greatly in this example. So if you were in his position, faced with this action, would you check back the hands griffey listed, or block so you don't have to showdown vs a stronger hand that can't/won't call, or even block to not showdown and hide your hand?
As for why villain doesn't bet before the river, he may be racing to showdown too with a nervous mid-pair, or unpaired high cards, and then just simply change his mind given the new information and bluff or whatever. This hand honestly looks like you're both in the same position and he found a bet.
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