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Renton
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03-06-2007, 05:02 AM
Post subject: I make another *interesting* play.
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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PokerStars Game #8761924727: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2007/03/06 - 00:50:16 (ET)
Table 'Koon II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Renton555 ($590.90 in chips)
Seat 2: WSU Slacker ($547 in chips)
Seat 3: tom90cu ($152 in chips)
Seat 4: any4moore ($251.55 in chips)
Seat 5: gopack7245 ($460.95 in chips)
Seat 6: dictionary ($928.90 in chips)
dictionary: posts small blind $2
Renton555: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Qh Qc]
WSU Slacker: raises $12 to $16
tom90cu: folds
any4moore: folds
gopack7245: folds
dictionary: folds
Renton555: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [5s Kc 5c]
Renton555: checks
WSU Slacker: bets $28
Renton555: calls $28
*** TURN *** [5s Kc 5c] [Kd]
Renton555: checks
WSU Slacker: checks
*** RIVER *** [5s Kc 5c Kd] [8s]
Renton555: bets $75
Villain is a 17/11 nit and we've no history. I'm also playing pretty nitty at this table (like 21/17).
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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nh
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apunisher
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 398
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are you trying to induce a hero call from like 99-JJ or something?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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yeah nice thinking and NH
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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nh
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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I like it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,548
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
yeah nice thinking and NH
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I would like to hear the thinking. The nh's are cool and all but I'd like to hear a bit of the thought process.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
yeah nice thinking and NH
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I would like to hear the thinking. The nh's are cool and all but I'd like to hear a bit of the thought process. |
big bet discourages bluff raises, but is conspicuous enough that an ego player will give loose action with mid pairs and maybe ace high
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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By value-betting QQ or JJ here, you're third-leveling another winning player who is likely to interpret this bet as either a full house or a bluff, so he might call with 88 or even ace high. I have to go to the grocery store before it closes in 30 min. but I'll write some more about it when I get home.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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only thing is WSU=nit so u dont get called often, maybe JJ, TT, but I think you have the best hand enough to make this good.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
yeah nice thinking and NH
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I would like to hear the thinking. The nh's are cool and all but I'd like to hear a bit of the thought process. |
Well first of all i'm guessing Renton has a bluffish image. Also, Nit's usually aren't tricky and although it's possible he checked behind the turn here with a K he probably didn't (and AK is pretty much the only K hand a 17/11 raises UTG anyways). So we are pretty sure we are good here, and since he'll probably get calls from mid PP's or even A high, he's getting good value here. Villian probably thinks he couldv'e floated the flop or had a draw and missed it.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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OK, I'm back. There are two reasons I like the river bet. The first is that I think you're usually ahead, and that you get called by worse hands often enough to make a bet +EV. This was already covered by sauce123 and Massimo.
The second reason is a metagame reason that no one has mentioned so far. Unless you can make thin value bets like this, you can't maintain an aggro image against decent players. A big river bet on this board is going to be interpreted as either a boat or a bluff. Problem is, it's easier for the hero to have a bluff than a boat. So if he's bluffing a lot of the times he has nothing, and only value-betting boats, a decent villain will insta-call the river here. But when the hero is capable of value-betting more hands, suddenly the villain can't profitably call with ace-high or 88 anymore, and that opens the door for the hero to bluff more often on the river in the future. Although metagame isn't a huge factor against an unknown opponent, I still think a nit is likely to put us on a boat or a bluff here, make a thin call, and lose. And even if he does fold, this hand is gonna help build up your image against this opponent.
One of my favorite posters on 2p2 was talking about this concept awhile ago and here's what he wrote.
Quote:
We'll use this Strasser hand as an example. I dont' have the link, but he was playing Phil Ivey heads up 300/600 I think. Basically, the board came K Q 8 3 4 or something, and Strassa fired the river (I think he bet all three streets) with QJ. So, he had second pair second kicker, and he bet the river from position when he could have checked behind. Some people say "WTF awful," but they're basically wrong becuase Strassa is merging his range. In HU, ace high and small pairs are frequently the nuts. So basically, if Ivey thinks Strassa is bluffing (there was a whiffed straight and maybe flush draw out there), then Ivey will call with what he percieves to be all bluff catchers. Those hands are like 8x, pairs between 99-JJ, maybe AJ high, 55, or a bunch of random little pairs. Strassa's hand of 2P2K is ahead of what he percieves Ivey's range is to CC two streets- so he bets the river. In a vacuum, Ivey held Kx, for top pair no kicker, and he quickly called Strassa. So in this instance, it didn't work, he was value betting the worst hand, but part of merging your range is value betting the worst hand at times. Basically, when people get to the river, they're so happy to check behind hands like even top pair sometimes, and that is generally not good.
Your range looks like this |___________________| So, Most people will bet this much of their range |___ (check behind) _____| That is, they will bet the worst 10% of their hands (missed draws, with NO showdown value) and the best 15% (top pair top kicker, two pairs, trips, etc.) Now, if people percieve you as a bluffer (in a sense, everyone wants to have an aggressive image, people always think I'm bluffing) then you want to merge your range so that you are betting MUCH more of your made hands (like second pair, soemtimes, or the bad end of a straight when people assume you'll only bet the nuts or air becuase it's a good board to bluff at) So, you want your range of hands to bet to look like this |_____ (check behind) __________| If I'm betting more of the hands at the top end of my spectrum (range) then I'm making people's decisions on the river MUCH more difficult.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Hahahah I really really like this
I think you get looked up by lots of PP's and A-high if villain sees you as overaggro.
Also, villain almost always checks behind with hands he's tempted to call with.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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nh Renton, np mcatdog
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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he thought for 5 seconds and minraised. Sick easy foldament right?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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i guess he did have AK... lol. The check behind makes sense, it worked out for him too.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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played well, all low stakes players looking to move up should read mcat's post
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I like the river lead if it's not meant to be a standard play, but something you do to mix it up.. but two things I don't understand.. why no RR preflop? Because he raised UTG, ie very tight range compared to his 11% average? Second thing, you call 21/17 nitty.. huh?
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
I like the river lead if it's not meant to be a standard play, but something you do to mix it up.. but two things I don't understand.. why no RR preflop? Because he raised UTG, ie very tight range compared to his 11% average? Second thing, you call 21/17 nitty.. huh?
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i was also wondering why you didnt r/r preflop? You are way ahead of eve his UTG range most likely. I also question 21/17 being nitty.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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... and i think we can find a fold to the min-raise. pretty nh though.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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I like Villain's turn play. Most nits aren't smart enough to check a king.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
why no RR preflop?
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I'd like to continue crushing his range.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Second thing, you call 21/17 nitty.. huh?
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well i meant nitier than normal, generally i hover around the 25/20ish area when i two-table.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
why no RR preflop?
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I'd like to continue crushing his range. |
uh??
i think you bet too big on river. i like 50-60 better.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
why no RR preflop?
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I'd like to continue crushing his range. |
uh?? |
Doesn't a reraise from the bb of a tight player raising utg represent at LEAST QQ?
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