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mcatdog
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04-15-2007, 08:23 PM
Post subject: I hate the phrase "call and re-evaluate"
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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A lot of times when someone posts a hand where they have a good one pair hand and they're facing a scary bet or raise, people tell them to "call and re-evaluate on the turn." I think this sucks. No one ever explains what they mean by it. Does it mean something stupid like "Call and unless you hit a miracle card, fold to the big turn bet which is almost always going to come?" Or does it mean fold if he bets this amount, call if he bets this other amount, raise all-in if he bets yet a different amount? Why are we always telling people to get involved in big pots on the flop without any plan for what to do on the turn?
Thoughts? Am I off base here or does anyone else not like these posts either. I think they'd be fine if they led to a discussion of what factors are going to be involved in our decision on the turn but that discussion never happens.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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if you're OOP it's not great.
If you're in position you can often gain a lot of information based on the OOP villain's reaction to the turn card.
Sometimes when you're coolered a scare card will get you to showdown cheaply or allow you to bluff a thinking villain.
Sometimes when a board goes from dry to super-dry it becomes easier to narrow villain's range to bluffs and hands that are crushing us.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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yeah in a lot of situations it is the wrong advice. sometimes it just needs to be phrased differently... like call but not to "re-evaluate" the turn.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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calling the flop raise implies evaluating on the turn. i think people don't elaborate more because it just "depends" too much. what card fell? how scary is it? did your opponent bet or check? if they bet, how much? etc etc.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,548
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Problem with calling and evaluting the turn is we are getting ourselves committed way too often.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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This kinda reminds me when i said that "wait for a better spot was retarded"
I think the move itself can be very retarded, i think people should stop calling and reevaluating so much when its so obvious what bet is coming.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
This kinda reminds me when i said that "wait for a better spot was retarded"
I think the move itself can be very retarded, i think people should stop calling and reevaluating so much when its so obvious what bet is coming.
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you are OOP with KdJd on KcJc8d
You check-raise my c-bet.
I call. At this point you put me on a range of XcYc, AK, Q10, 910...
I think if we "call and reevaluate on the turn" we'll be taking a significantly +ev deal.
edit : part of our +evness will be bluffing scare cards with AK, KQ or a straight draw when the flushdraw hits.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I think the main problem with saying "call and re-evaluate" is that it's too little information. Someone who makes that statement should also have an explanation to go along with it.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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You shouldn't really be calling to re-evaluate. You should be calling with a plan as to how you are going to play the turn/river. These plans should be IF..., Then... You should not be calling without thinking what may lie ahead.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i like the phrase, ill try to write a paragraph about it later
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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That would be more than 46 words, idk if your capable.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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If you have been observing ur opponent (specially if they r 12 tabling and arent v. tricky) then you should know their approximate lines with different hands/semibluffs well enough to make a +ev decision on the turn. If you have no plan about HOW to re-evaluate, a fold is probably good.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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sauce said it well
u get more information on by seeing what they do on turn (their action, the bet sizing if there is one, and the speed of which they do it).
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c-luvin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 159
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i think in general turn bets have much more information in them than flop bets, because flop bets are usually standard, where turn bets have alot more of a range which contains more information than a standard cont bet.
its used alot in pots where someone cont bets close to pot in a big pot and raising could be detremental against a good player leading out a set, folding would just be terrible, so unless you have specific reads calling and trying to gain even a little more information out of his turn bet to try and make the right play is the best play.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Problem with calling and evaluting the turn is we are getting ourselves committed way too often.
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thats because we dont think on the flop that if opp does xxxx then we are folding REGARDLESS.
if someone has said reevaluate, we should be thinking about doing something on the turn that allows us to stack off, or avoid it (despite any pot odds) in a pot where on the flop we are unsure because mostly of texture.
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