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lambchopdc
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06-24-2006, 10:22 PM
Post subject: Hypothetical Situation (Poll)
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 350
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This started with a discussion between me, boost, dsaxton, and renton. We're opening it up to vote.
Here is the situation:
1/2 6Max Full Table
You are UTG with AA, you raise to $8
Button, who you either have no reads on or you know to be an average donk re-raises to $24, everyone else folds.
You both have exactly $200 to start the hand.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Pushing is best against most players because you are out of position and while the chances they call a push are less than that they call a rereraise, they aren't less in proportion to the betting, therefore the EV is greatest when you overbet.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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I like minraising him to $48 and typing "bluffing again eh?" in the chat
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I'd make it however much that you can push any flop and have it not be an overbet. Maybe $75.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I'd make it however much that you can push any flop and have it not be an overbet. Maybe $75.
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Yeah, I like the middle option too. Only AA, maybe KK would stick it all-in preflop.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Reraising here is bad in my opinion, unless you know he has KK and is willing to get it all in PF, otherwise I would just call. Reraising totally gives away the strength of your hand. Would you ever even reraise here with QQ? I would almost always just call PF and then c/r the flop ai. The only time I stick in another reraise is when I'm trying to protect my hand from a multiway pot, or if I make a standard raise with AA to like $7 and some dude pops it up to like $35, I like pushing there alot.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I think calling and popping it up to 80ish are the best choices. Of those, I probably call the most.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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I think by pushing you allow him to play optimally
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Call.. I'd only reraise to $60-$70 or so if there's "bad blood" and I suspect he might think I'm testing him or something.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I'd make it however much that you can push any flop and have it not be an overbet. Maybe $75.
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Yeah, I like the middle option too. Only AA, maybe KK would stick it all-in preflop. |
uhh.. says who? I dont get how people say things like this, are we both playing party 6max?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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I understand the arguments for calling.
In my book, theres basically a spectrum I follow here:
On the left end of the spectrum, you have your total donk run-of-the-mill fish. On the right end you have a strong TAgg.
The closer villain is to the left the more likely I am to push, knowing he'll call with weaker hands often enough to create massive EV for me. The closer villain is to the right, the more likely I am to just call and extract postflop.
I think the reraise to 80 is the worst option because it takes the worst from both sides. You total unveil the strength of your hand, like you would if pushing, but you miss out on huge expected value sometimes. The only time I would use this option is if stacks were very deep.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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this poll sucks, there are so many more variables that need to be considered
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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depending on reads obviously, i would just call here expecting him to lead out the flop, and repop it AI.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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lambchopdc
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 350
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
this poll sucks, there are so many more variables that need to be considered
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Quote:
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Button, who you either have no reads on or you know to be an average donk
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What other variables do u need?
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Easy call. Flop c/r or c/c.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I dunno Renton, it's not as if we have arrived at the river yet. There is still betting to done. I think it's clear Villain is more likely to call $80 than a $200 3bet right? But by betting $80, we give him the option to repop it himself, or fork over his stack from the flop on out.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Quote:
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Button, who you either have no reads on or you know to be an average donk
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What other variables do u need? |
are those things synonymous?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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preflop call
flop call
push turn
edit: push preflop if hes an idiot
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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I admit to being naive, but the only hands he'd ever call an AI (or $80) are QQ (maybe) and KK. While he may reraise with JJ+/AK. If the flop is all unders you'll get most of his stack between raise/reraise/push. Plus, on a crazy flop (somethink like QJx or KJx) you can minimize your potential losses.
Since you think you're a better player post-flop, why not get there with a huge upper-hand that your opponent doesn't put you on AA/KK (because if you did, you'ld have surely reraised, right?).
Also, if the villian has any read on you at all, he will fold to your push without KK.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Most of the time I'm calling preflop and check-raising the pants off of his c-bet.
Reraising all-in tells him what our hand is so he probably folds unless he has KK/QQ/AK (he may fold all of those, too) or he is just really stupid. Unless there's some way he's got a read on us that we re-raise with poop preflop OOP, but I doubt he has that image of us becasue we are good players (except for Lukie).
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
I think by pushing you allow him to play optimally
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Agree.
I call unless the guy is an obvious fish.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by yorib
If the flop is all unders...
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With AA, any flop is all undercards...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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dwags222
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gaylord, MI
Posts: 151
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OK, hopefully i won't hijack this thread...but here is a question i've been thinking about...lets say you are quite certain that if you have aa in this situation, and that if you raise at any point in the hand the opponent will fold, (lets just say he is agressive and will bluff or bet tp any kicker strong because he is mostly out there to steal pots and hit the occasional monster, but is smart enough to know that he needs to fold to agression)but you also know that if you check the opponent will bet at you on every street if you call him down, is it correct to simply check/call down the opponent no matter what cards come on the board and no matter how much he is betting??? on one hand, the only way to extract value is to call down because any aggression on your part will cause a fold, but on the other you get absolutely no info about your hand.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
I think by pushing you allow him to play optimally
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[/quote]
not really....if hes a bad player then he wil have a wider calling range, and if hes good he will take note when you correctly push with stuff like AK preflop
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
I think by pushing you allow him to play optimally
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not really....if hes a bad player then he wil have a wider calling range, and if hes good he will take note when you correctly push with stuff like AK preflop[/quote]
cmon man, you raise to 4bb, get popped to 12bb, your average player isn't calling a 100bb push here even with a hand as good as QQ.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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[quote]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
I think by pushing you allow him to play optimally
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Quote:
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not really....if hes a bad player then he wil have a wider calling range, and if hes good he will take note when you correctly push with stuff like AK preflop
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cmon man, you raise to 4bb, get popped to 12bb, your average player isn't calling a 100bb push here even with a hand as good as QQ.
edit: damnit get your quotes right
edit2: ur earlier post about so many variables having to be considered, one of which is our OWN image which is very important in these types of spots is very relevant. However, my point still stands.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i'd like to hear arguments for repopping as opposed to pushing.
Repopping to 80 seems like the worst option by far.
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i'd like to hear arguments for repopping as opposed to pushing.
Repopping to 80 seems like the worst option by far.
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I agree, I either push or call depending on the donk factor.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
cmon man, you raise to 4bb, get popped to 12bb, your average player isn't calling a 100bb push here even with a hand as good as QQ.
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in aggressive games QQ calls a push here alot
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
I think by pushing you allow him to play optimally
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not really....if hes a bad player then he wil have a wider calling range, and if hes good he will take note when you correctly push with stuff like AK preflop[/quote]
If he's good he will know that you know that this is not the right time to be pushing with AK.
I don't feel that enough "fish" call with QQ/AK to make up for the times good players fold.
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