Poker Forum

Over 1,247,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

Short-Handed NL Hold'em

  > 

HU, SB shoves...

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
euphoricism
Old 10-16-2007, 06:29 PM     Post subject: HU, SB shoves... #1 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Let's play a game. Eupho is a shortstack with 20bb in the SB, its folded to him. Youre in the BB. Eupho shoves. He does this with practically every hand when it is folded to him in the SB. You know this.

What would you call with?
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
badgers
Old 10-16-2007, 06:55 PM #2 (permalink)  
badgers's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
badgers
Send a message via MSN to badgers
Depends what range Eupho is actually on but something like top 40%. Shoving every hand in that spot is throwing money away imo.
3k post - Return of the blog!
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-16-2007, 07:15 PM #3 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
IowaSkinsFan
Old 10-16-2007, 08:15 PM #4 (permalink)  
IowaSkinsFan's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enoughIowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o
ummm why would u include J8 and T9 as top 40% in an all in pot?

Just do the range in pokerstove, there's no dispute. random hand versus blah range, figure out what's 50% and call with that.
Check out the new blog!!!
 
Reply With Quote
bigspenda73
Old 10-16-2007, 08:22 PM #5 (permalink)  
bigspenda73's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
 funny, could swear spoonitnow made this thread a year ago
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 10-16-2007, 08:53 PM #6 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
If I know you're pushing any 2 and it's a raked game:
Any two cards 9+
Any two suited cards 8+
Any pair
Any Ace
Any Suited King
87s
I might even throw in a couple more hands like K8, etc.

If I'm not sure:
Any two cards 10+
Any two suited cards 9+
Any pair
Any suited Ace
Most suited Kings
A5+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-16-2007, 08:59 PM #7 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o
ummm why would u include J8 and T9 as top 40% in an all in pot?

Just do the range in pokerstove, there's no dispute. random hand versus blah range, figure out what's 50% and call with that.
Thats what i did, donkey.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
kmind
Old 10-16-2007, 09:08 PM #8 (permalink)  
kmind's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
kmind is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
funny, could swear spoonitnow made this thread a year ago
I think like a month or two he did in the BC.

EDIT: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...106&highlight=

Could be another thread explaining more but this is what I found so far
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-16-2007, 09:13 PM #9 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Same idea, different application.

I want to know what a "reasonable player" calls with from the BB.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-16-2007, 09:39 PM #10 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
If I know you're pushing any 2 and it's a raked game:
Any two cards 9+
Any two suited cards 8+
Any pair
Any Ace
Any Suited King
87s
I might even throw in a couple more hands like K8, etc.

If I'm not sure:
Any two cards 10+
Any two suited cards 9+
Any pair
Any suited Ace
Most suited Kings
A5+
I used the "If I'm not sure:" range, as I think its more practical for this application. And while I believe your range is considerably wider than the "average player's" range, it's certainly what a good player would call with, so its worth examining. Your range came out to 27% of hands.

22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A5o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (only pasted because thats now three times ive cleared it out of PT and had to redo it hand by hand heh)

Against this range, I break even if I shove a hand range that has approximately 38.5% equity against this range. Therefore, according to PokerStove, I break even shoving 93.7% of my hands. This only excludes the worst of the worst hands. 83o, 72o and lower. I begin showing marginal profit (really marginal after rake) at 90% of my hands. Which removes 92o, 65o, and 43o.

Basically, what I'm trying to show is that what badgers wrote, "Shoving every hand in that spot is throwing money away imo." is wrong. Well, not really wrong. He's right. Its *possible* to make it -EV but you need to call with a wider range. And I contend that very few players (and certainly not the "average" one) will. His 40% estimate made my shove -0.44 EV.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-16-2007, 09:48 PM #11 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
I'm exactly neutral EV on the shove if you call with the following range (and I'm truly pushing 100%)

22+,A3s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,A7o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

Corresponds to 25.2% of hands. If you call with a tighter range than this, my shove is profitable with any two cards.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 10-16-2007, 10:10 PM #12 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
A strong SnG player should have better ranges here. This is just generally what I'm going with if I think you're being ghey and I'm not going to just give you the keys to my car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
IowaSkinsFan
Old 10-16-2007, 10:29 PM #13 (permalink)  
IowaSkinsFan's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enoughIowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
40% is a big ass range.

44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T9o
ummm why would u include J8 and T9 as top 40% in an all in pot?

Just do the range in pokerstove, there's no dispute. random hand versus blah range, figure out what's 50% and call with that.
Thats what i did, donkey.
Yeah i mean im just wondering what help other posters could be? This is a serious question, im not trying to make some witty "OH SNAP" response.
Check out the new blog!!!
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-16-2007, 10:45 PM #14 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
I dont want the ideal calling range. I want to know what the "normal" person is going to call with.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
badgers
Old 10-17-2007, 02:36 AM #15 (permalink)  
badgers's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
badgers
Send a message via MSN to badgers
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
I dont want the ideal calling range. I want to know what the "normal" person is going to call with.
Depends entirely on reads on how often I have seen Eupho shove in this spot. You said I know he's shoving nealry any 2 therefore I call with top 40-50%.
Reply With Quote
|~|ypermegachi
Old 10-17-2007, 03:07 AM #16 (permalink)  
|~|ypermegachi's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
|~|ypermegachi
any A, 66+, K8+, Q9+, SC 76+, OSC 98+
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-17-2007, 03:43 AM #17 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
66+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A2o+,K8o+,Q 9o+,JTo,T9o,98o

is... 32.4% of hands.

Makes my shove (of any two, which i dont *actually* shove) -0.19 EV.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
|~|ypermegachi
Old 10-17-2007, 04:31 AM #18 (permalink)  
|~|ypermegachi's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
|~|ypermegachi
when you're shoving so wide it doesn't make much of a difference what your calling range is. any calling range from 30-50% will be reasonable enough that over hundreds of thousands of hands you might converge to break even.
 
Reply With Quote
bigspenda73
Old 10-17-2007, 06:09 AM #19 (permalink)  
bigspenda73's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
funny, could swear spoonitnow made this thread a year ago
I think like a month or two he did in the BC.

EDIT: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...106&highlight=

Could be another thread explaining more but this is what I found so far

WRONG!!

This is the thread I remembered: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=#442975
Reply With Quote
sauce123
Old 10-17-2007, 09:53 PM #20 (permalink)  
sauce123's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
sauce123 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to sauce123
A2o+ 22+ K9+ K7s+ QJo+ Q9s+

maybe a little tighter if u fold more than say 15% of the time
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-17-2007, 11:26 PM #21 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
when you're shoving so wide it doesn't make much of a difference what your calling range is. any calling range from 30-50% will be reasonable enough that over hundreds of thousands of hands you might converge to break even.
How many people over hundreds of thousands of hands break even in the SB?
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 10-17-2007, 11:33 PM #22 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
A2o+ 22+ K9+ K7s+ QJo+ Q9s+

maybe a little tighter if u fold more than say 15% of the time
shove is still +.08 EV, after rake slightly negative but I'm not real sure how to calculate that precisely.. Yours is probably the best "practical" range to make the shove near breakeven. I still contend the average players is tighter than that.

Then again I have been called by Q2o and K2o a few times ;p
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
Bbickes Old 06-02-2012, 08:10 PM    Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
In an effort to perhaps keep players from moving to the new Revolution Network setup by the former Lock Poker, Merge Network has taken drastic steps to respond to their player base's requests to impro ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:04 PM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.