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Genitruc
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04-01-2008, 05:38 AM
Post subject: HU River CR trips facing strength
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Just got here and villain seems like a reg just based on his betsizes. I’ve been playing really tight preflop.
No really strong postflop reads yet.
Maybe this is a spot that doesn’t really matter?
Game #6612286004: Hold'em NL (£0.50/£1) - 2008/04/01 - 06:08:57 (UK)
Table "Tenhigh" Seat 7 is the button.
Seat 6: HERO (£100.20 in chips)
Seat 7: VILLAIN (£100 in chips)
VILLAIN: posts small blind £0.50
HERO: posts big blind £1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to HERO  
VILLAIN: raises to £3
HERO: calls £2
----- FLOP -----   
HERO: checks
VILLAIN: bets £4
HERO: calls £4
----- TURN ----- 
HERO: checks
VILLAIN: checks
----- RIVER -----  
HERO: checks
VILLAIN: bets £8
HERO: raises to £28
VILLAIN: raises to £93 and is all-in
HERO…
fwiw turn and river obv can be played completely differently... but I'm mainly interested in riv as played
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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i want to say fold. It looks like he checked the turn with a boat trying to let a FD catch up or he spiked the river boat on the river. I don't think hes turning hands you beat much into a bluff here so he either has it or he doesn't. I wouldn't assume he would make ridiculous bluffs like this because he doesn't belive your check/raise. I would wait until shown this.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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easiest fold ever?
is he doing this with 97 or AK?
river cr also doesn't accomplish value
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I call, I think it's a horrible board for him to check back the turn with any made hand and he can put you on a missed draw on the river or he could be trying to valuetown a paired ace with AK.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Hmm weird hand.
I really don't think JQ (unless it was JQ of hearts) any 9x would check through this turn. So I think this is a boat pretty often.
The only hand that really makes sense here is AT I think. Who thinks they are stacking all of your aces by shoving with their better two pair. I really can't see AK playing this way, and it would be fully spewfest for them to shove here.
River shove is JQh's/AT/boat I think.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I'm folding, he is not thinking that your river c/r could be air and he is expecting to stack you imo. I don't really like c/r here much either cause he's going to check behind with all of his hands that have showdown value that you beat and would get a bet from. With no history I doubt he looks up your check raise light here.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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I would call but I'm not quite sure if I like the river c/raise without proper reads.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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cmon guys this is such a fold. name one, just one, reasonable hand we beat
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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AT. And if you're going to say he wouldn't check that behind on the turn then I counter by saying it's about as likely as checking behind TT or QJ.
What makes me want to call really is the fact that we are repping air.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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if standard regs shoved here with AT i would have retired from riches a long time ago.
doesn't really matter if our hand looks like a bluff, we're not gonna be put on one. 100nl regs dont shove over river c/rs with air. hard pressed to find good players much higher who like their reads enough to do that.
like i said, easiest fold ever
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
AT. And if you're going to say he wouldn't check that behind on the turn then I counter by saying it's about as likely as checking behind TT or QJ.
What makes me want to call really is the fact that we are repping air.
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If we're repping air... villain would just flat call AT and not bomb it?... what value does he have in pushing if he thinks we have air?
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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I don't like the river checkraise for value at all. I would often bet turn and river, possibly folding to a shove on the latter.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
AT. And if you're going to say he wouldn't check that behind on the turn then I counter by saying it's about as likely as checking behind TT or QJ.
What makes me want to call really is the fact that we are repping air.
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If we're repping air... villain would just flat call AT and not bomb it?... what value does he have in pushing if he thinks we have air? |
Ok you changed my mind.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deanglow
I don't like the river checkraise for value at all. I would often bet turn and river, possibly folding to a shove on the latter.
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agreed. this makes it everything so much simpler.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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I was villain with Q hi on riv
dood w J9 timed out at 2 other tables and called with a cpl seconds left.
guess I was 1/4 level too deep
btw I rly liked Irish's analysis and at the time I felt it was risky since a good reader would have a really tough time putting me on a hand that checked through on the turn.
For that same reason I felt the guy w J9 would show up with air quite a bit here thinking I was bluffing the A. Finally the reason for the shove rather than a cheap CiB was that I felt most regs would just sigh and assume I had a huuuge hand (mainly aces full) and possibly fold everything but QJ+ (in the event he did have a strong hand he was CR for value).
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Hi I'd just like to interject at this point and say haha screw you all. Thank you.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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this isnt a matter of screw you all. once in a blue moon you can count your lucky stars
both villain and hero played this poorly. wouldn't be surprised if they both got buddy listed
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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sore loser imo. Results prove I was right.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Yeah dude Genitruc your sick you really can't rep anything but he has to fold.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Yeah dude Genitruc your sick you really can't rep anything but he has to fold.
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ya that s the thing
i don t usually do this stuff anymore except once in a blue moon vs a reg
at the stakes I play I don't expect many ppl to be ***excellent*** hand readers so reppign a credible line isn't as important as it would be vs say an unknown 5-10 reg
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
sore loser imo. Results prove I was right.
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it would be awesome if you weren't trying to level
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Yeah dude Genitruc your sick you really can't rep anything but he has to fold.
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ya that s the thing
i don t usually do this stuff anymore except once in a blue moon vs a reg
at the stakes I play I don't expect many ppl to be ***excellent*** hand readers so reppign a credible line isn't as important as it would be vs say an unknown 5-10 reg |
you're out-thinking yourself. doesn't matter much what youre repping here but what he's repping. river c/r at small stakes is like a cold 4bet pf or something. the repped range is so tight that playing back without a monster or odds is wrong.
and even if his range isn't super tight but just a little tight (like with J9), then it shows that he's bad enough to c/r river for value here so he is more likely to hero call a shove.
i cannot think of any hand where coming over a river c/r with air at small stakes is a good idea. do you have any?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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hmm i don t think this was that bad even if I saw his hand
but i ve tended to think about meta way more than most ppl grinding lowstakes
btw don t forget this was in POUNDS BABY (omg highstakes )nl100=nl200
I totally agree this shit is unnecessary but I kind of find it funny that most ppl said "fold" regarding the OP
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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another interesting question is "when DOES it start making sense to pull the odd completely insane play vs a villain's uber-strong line"?
most ppl agree that it's "bad" at low-stakes... but if it's bad at nl200 does is somehow become good at 5-10? 10-20?
obv there's no cutoff where all of a sudden it becomes profitable but I don't think the stakes matter as much as the knowledge that the villain is thinking...
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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umm ... 3bet preflop .... if u r just calling preflop, CHECKRAISEFLOP. rest of hand plays itself.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
I totally agree this shit is unnecessary but I kind of find it funny that most ppl said "fold" regarding the OP
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why? fold is the correct response to the shove, and it isn't even close. i find that the standard of not posting results with HHs is quite irritating. the results dont matter, and i'll still say the same exact stuff no matter if i know them, and any good player/poster will as well.
and dont think that because i said fold is way the best means that villain shove was good. like i said, if somebody is gonna c/r a marginal hand there they're likely to stack with it too, and river c/rs are bluffs very rarely at small stakes.
the reason for making the stake distinction here (which i often think isn't important) is that river c/r bluffs simply have not caught on by anybody at small stakes, yet has at higher stakes. the two main reasons for that are that player pool is smaller higher up so regs see more of each other and gotta look for different stuff, and understanding how to bluff raise rivers profitably is at this point something that only really good players know how to do and those players dont play small stakes.
and 1/2 is pretty much the same as .5/1
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
another interesting question is "when DOES it start making sense to pull the odd completely insane play vs a villain's uber-strong line"?
most ppl agree that it's "bad" at low-stakes... but if it's bad at nl200 does is somehow become good at 5-10? 10-20?
obv there's no cutoff where all of a sudden it becomes profitable but I don't think the stakes matter as much as the knowledge that the villain is thinking...
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knowing villain is thinking isnt enough ... you have to know hes thinking, and u have to know what level hes on, and u have to have a strong read of what hes holding, what he perceives you're representing, and whether or not he is capable of believing what you are trying to rep ... this can happen at 5nl if it's 2 good players obv.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
you have to know hes thinking, and u have to know what level hes on, and u have to have a strong read of what hes holding, what he perceives you're representing, and whether or not he is capable of believing what you are trying to rep ... this can happen at 5nl if it's 2 good players obv.
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i thought you said that you shouldn't think at micro stakes. just value bet, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
you have to know hes thinking, and u have to know what level hes on, and u have to have a strong read of what hes holding, what he perceives you're representing, and whether or not he is capable of believing what you are trying to rep ... this can happen at 5nl if it's 2 good players obv.
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i thought you said that you shouldn't think at micro stakes. just value bet, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight? |
like, why are you doing this?
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