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how not to play AA?

  
 
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Pingviini
Old 03-21-2006, 12:30 AM     Post subject: how not to play AA? #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is solid. Not any other reads..

The Mixxa is at seat 1 with 866.97
MuMuMu is at seat 2 with 595.60
jatama is at seat 3 with 276.00
PingZen is at seat 4 with 705.00
alfre is at seat 5 with 416.62

alfre posts the large blind 6.00
PingZen posts the small blind 3.00

PingZen: Ah, Ac
alfre: --, --
The Mixxa: --, --
MuMuMu: --, --
jatama: --, --

Pre-flop:

The Mixxa: Call 6.00
MuMuMu: Fold
jatama: Fold
PingZen: Raise 24.00
alfre: Fold
The Mixxa: Call 24.00

Flop (Board: Jd, 7c, 4h):

PingZen: Bet 36.00
The Mixxa: Raise 72.00
PingZen: Call 72.00

Turn (Board: Jd, 7c, 4h, 8c):

PingZen: Check
The Mixxa: Bet 108.00
PingZen: Call 108.00

River (Board: Jd, 7c, 4h, 8c, 5s):

PingZen: Check
The Mixxa: Check

Showdown:

PingZen shows: Ah, Ac (a pair of Aces)

Mainpot:
PingZen wins the pot of 411.00 with a pair of Aces

(3.00 rake were taken for this hand)
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Warpe
Old 03-21-2006, 12:33 AM #2 (permalink)  
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r8ed
Old 03-21-2006, 05:38 AM #3 (permalink)  
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That repped a set well, you just didn't care. Solid player limp/calls UTG, then doubles your flop bet, then builds the pot more on the turn when you check. Are you calling a river push?
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Bmxicle
Old 03-21-2006, 05:49 AM #4 (permalink)  
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looks alright in most cases. I usually bet/fold the turn instead though.
 
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Iwind
Old 03-21-2006, 09:01 AM #5 (permalink)  
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So that's your normal line when you think you might have run into a set? How much you bet on turn then?

Example
I raise 5x, 2 callers, 15bb pot.
I bet 10bb - someone raises 30bb - I call. 75bb pot.
I only have 65bb left then, how much do I bet?
I feel I have too little left to make this bet and still fold if raised.
Betting too weak has no effect, betting a decent amounts pretty much commits me. Can't fold with 20bb left. Does this line only work well with deep stacks?

Also often it,s 4bb raise, I 10bb reraise, he calls, pot is then 20bb at flop, makes it even worse.
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WildBobAA
Old 03-21-2006, 09:18 AM #6 (permalink)  
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The turn is where you should make your decision to either push/fold. You can't expect him to check again on the river. Calling is by far the worst play on the turn here.
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-21-2006, 10:46 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmxicle
looks alright in most cases. I usually bet/fold the turn instead though.
Can you explain why this is not specifically the worst option that you have?

The bet lets worse hands fold, the fold lets worse hands win. It is a truly win the least line at work.

A bet/fold on the river is a much better line.

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Pingviini
Old 03-21-2006, 11:27 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
The turn is where you should make your decision to either push/fold. You can't expect him to check again on the river. Calling is by far the worst play on the turn here.
I really dont think that I have to commit to this spot on turn when there is about 200 on the pot after flop and we have about 600 behind. After turn pot is 400 and we have 500 or so behind. but yeah, c/c on turn is bad. I would like someone to give some lines here.. I still dislike the turn push with this pot size and stacks here, a lot. If board was scarier and I could think of him semi-bluffing I could start thinking about pushing.

I totally misplayed this hand, and it happened on river. I am with demi here. I thought about the hand later and IMO it is quite obvious that I have to bet that river, blocking type of bet~150 sounds about right, and fold to a raise (although I might be fishy enough to call a minraise..)

There are merits for bet/folding on turn as well. If the villain indeed has a smaller overpair he might just start calling, as he might do with KJ/AJ.



Quote:
That repped a set well, you just didn't care. Solid player limp/calls UTG, then doubles your flop bet, then builds the pot more on the turn when you check. Are you calling a river push?
the minraise scared the shit out of me. At what point are you letting this hand go or taking a different line from mine? If I am put to the test for my stack I am folding here.
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r8ed
Old 03-21-2006, 01:40 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I look for a cheap showdown too. I probably let it go on the river if he puts out a substantial bet. It's one of those hands where you say "I"m probably behind but I'll show this one down if he lets me".
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zenbitz
Old 03-21-2006, 06:22 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I thought he had a set/two pair too, until he checked behind on the river.

Being OOP sucks. I am not sure your line isn't best here... but it aint good. If you bet the turn or river, and get raised again, you are probably folding (unless it's a m/r... which is a toss up).

If he is behind you - he is unlikley to make a big mistake by flat calling you down, but he might make mistakes by betting into you (and you calling). Of course, if he pushes you are probably done.

If he is ahead of you - then the only mistake he can make is not betting enough/getting enough in... so letting him bet at you isn't terrible. If he has JJ and pushes the river and you fold - he's made a mistake as well.

clearly the answer is to fold pre flop!
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gabe
Old 03-21-2006, 06:27 PM #11 (permalink)  
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check raise allin on turn plz, thats how you stack players with overpairs!
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Pingviini
Old 03-21-2006, 07:09 PM #12 (permalink)  
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that would be one strangely played overpair gabezor..
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gabe
Old 03-21-2006, 09:12 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pingviini
that would be one strangely played overpair gabezor..
i mean when you have an overpair, thats how you take their stack!

el diablo coined it the 'stackadonk' line, fnords mentioned it several times
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SmackinYaUp
Old 03-21-2006, 09:28 PM #14 (permalink)  
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personally i like the line. i don't see any reason to push this turn against what you said was a solid villain. let him overplay his hand if he's behind and give yourself a chance to get out if you think you're behind. its not the best board in the world so i say keep it small. and don't check fold the turn either, thats not good.
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Pingviini
Old 03-21-2006, 11:15 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pingviini
that would be one strangely played overpair gabezor..
i mean when you have an overpair, thats how you take their stack!

el diablo coined it the 'stackadonk' line, fnords mentioned it several times
that is how I destack overpairs with my sets..
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gabe
Old 03-21-2006, 11:30 PM #16 (permalink)  
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ok?
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alias2211
Old 03-22-2006, 03:39 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Can you explain why this is not specifically the worst option that you have?

The bet lets worse hands fold, the fold lets worse hands win. It is a truly win the least line at work.
Demi, just wanted to thank you for participating in the shorthanded NLHE forums. I have enjoyed your commentary thus far very much, I have much to learn from the insight of established limit players who make statements like this on a regular basis, statements that make most NLHE players shake/scratch their heads. Keep it coming!
In answer to your question... it depends...
alias2211.com poker
 
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aislephive
Old 03-22-2006, 07:48 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp
personally i like the line. i don't see any reason to push this turn against what you said was a solid villain. let him overplay his hand if he's behind and give yourself a chance to get out if you think you're behind. its not the best board in the world so i say keep it small. and don't check fold the turn either, thats not good.
Agreed. I like the way he played this hand. A raise probably won't be called unless we're beat in most cases, and we can fold to a big river bet (or call if you think you're ahead), it'll be hard for villain to fire out big on that river again without a big hand here. He probably checks behind the river with just a jack. I really like the way he played this hand where he is unsure of his hand. A raise on the turn is a risky play.
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Bear Bones
Old 03-22-2006, 07:17 PM     Post subject: Re: how not to play AA? #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pingviini
Flop (Board: Jd, 7c, 4h):

PingZen: Bet 36.00
The Mixxa: Raise 72.00
PingZen: Call 72.00
disclaimer -I don't play this limit - that said, doesn't anyone re-raise/push the flop here? Why not?
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