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jasons0147
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03-12-2008, 02:24 AM
Post subject: How Do I build a pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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Multiway limped pot, check in the big blind and I flop the nuts. Is there something I can do differently here to possibly get played back at or induce a bluff? I have stats on CO (25/5 over 230 Hands), and SB (22/7 over 180 Hands). I mean is this really a board I can check? I wasnt paying a whole lot of attention to the table so I dont know how aggressive they have been. I have a pretty laggy image running something like 28/25.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
UTG ($19.65)
MP ($15.90)
CO ($18.80)
Button ($24.95)
SB ($24.75)
Hero ($25.45)
Preflop: Hero is BB with  ,  .
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: ($1)  ,  ,  (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.5, CO folds, Button calls $0.50, SB calls $0.50.
Turn: ($2.50)  (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.5, Button folds, SB folds.
Final Pot: $2.50
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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you need to bet full pot on the flop !
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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jasons0147
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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See, I normally do...in fact I use the bet pot AHK script. I guess I just figured that If I led out for pot that I would get folded to. Is this the wrong way of thinking?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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play it like hes got a big FD or OESD and bet full pot or close to it.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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pot pot pot
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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What hands do you think will come along enough to "build a pot" will fold to a bigger bet on the flop here?
Its gonna happen or its not.
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Just playing to improve.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Stop trying to keep the weaker hands in, they won't Stack off anyway. Your looking to stack guys here, and PSB's do it. Any 99, AKo or FD will call the flop. pray they catch a piece or someone is slow playng an overpair.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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what you will eventually realize is that by betting your big hands you will get folds a large portion of the time, but stack people a much larger portion of the time giving you more money than keeping people around cheap more often.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jasons0147
See, I normally do...in fact I use the bet pot AHK script. I guess I just figured that If I led out for pot that I would get folded to. Is this the wrong way of thinking?
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You need to start thinking!
Think about what hands call you if you pot the flop - any two diamonds, any 5, any 7, a lot of pair + gutshot hands - that's a lot of hands.
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jimmyc
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 23
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Betting such a small amount is definitely a very bad option. If anyone has a piece of the flop, they're gonna call regardless of whether you bet $0.50 or $1. In a limped pot like that, it's very possible for someone to have hit 2-pair, a set, over-pair, flush draw, straight draw - all of which are gonna pay. You don't want to give odds for your opponents to out-draw you, a straight is by no means invincible. You may even want to think about over betting the pot. As you mentioned, you should be thinking about how to get your opponents whole stack in the middle, and a cheeky little over bet on the flop can make a surprising difference to the pot size in later betting rounds. Worried overbetting will give your hand away? Don't be. In this instance your straight is well disguised and your opponents will often misread your overbet, thinking you have a mediocre hand and want to end the pot right there. I can say with some degree of certainty your villains will call with straight/flush draws, seeing as you all have so much money behind relative to the bet size. And if you run into 2 pairs or a set and they raise you, wonderful, move in and they'll call you every time. Don't waste your time trying to get very weak hands to call you, you might get one small bet from them but that's as far as it goes because they have nothing. Ideally, you want people with big made hands (set, 2-pairss, over-pair) and people with strong draws. Giving your opponent favourable odds to out draw you is a big mistake, and when he does out draw you, you're gonna pay him off and lose a massive pot, which is a complete catastrophie. It's one of the most rudimentary errors beginners make. When they have monsters, they bet small, when they're bluffing, they bet huge. Where's the +EV in that? Slowplaying is overrated. Get your chips in there and stop trying to get Mr. Bottom Pair's extra $0.50.
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jasons0147
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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Jimmy I really appreciate the advice and going above and beyond "bet pot". I read lots on this forum about bet sizing but very people will take the time to explain why. Everything you say makes complete sense, I do Cbet a ton so I guess the idea is that opp will think that Im cbetting this time with a wide range of hands and not necessarily put me on the nut straight. I guess I didnt realize how disguised my hand was and looking at it from opp's point of view a large overbet would make no sense to me and I may a hand like 99 or TT or even AK was gold.
Granted, Ive never had the problem of say "slowplaying" hands like AA preflop. I was watching a video the trainer Jyms had made and he was dealth either KK or AA preflop (cant remember which one). He raised 5xBB preflop and mentioned to the people watching "dont worry if you dont get any callers, because they simply may have nothing to call you with". I think hands like this work in corelation with what Jyms was saying and everything is starting to make a lot more sense now.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Over-bet the pot!
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jasons0147
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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I do this every once in a while and raise with hands like this in early position. The reason Im posting this hand is to show a similar situation that I played like you guys told me to. My image is very nitty which is part of the reason why im raising preflop with 45 suited.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
MP ($17.75)
Button ($37.35)
SB ($26.20)
BB ($19.25)
Hero ($25.30)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with ,  .
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75.
Flop: ($3) ,  , (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $3, SB calls $3, BB folds.
Turn: ($9)  (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8, SB raises to $16, Hero raises to $21.3, SB calls $5.30.
River: ($51.60)  (2 players)
Final Pot: $51.60
Results in white below:
SB has Ah Tc (one pair, aces).
Hero has 4d 5d (straight, eight high).
Outcome: Hero wins $51.60.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jasons0147
My image is very nitty which is part of the reason why im raising preflop with 45 suited.
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I think if you want to make little plays like this preflop you should make them in position vs. positionally unaware opponents so that you can gain a good chunk of information.
You played postflop well there.
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jasons0147
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jasons0147
My image is very nitty which is part of the reason why im raising preflop with 45 suited.
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I think if you want to make little plays like this preflop you should make them in position vs. positionally unaware opponents so that you can gain a good chunk of information.
You played postflop well there. |
Raising in early position with a weak hand like this is something I do maybe every 10 orbits. I may do it a little more often when Im at a real nitty table, like this one. Table was filled with typical 25NL 20/17 regs, with the exception of villan who is 45/10. The great thing about a hand like this is that it disguised so well, I mean who thinks a 15/13 nit like myself is raising 45 suited utg?
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Kagey
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 158
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Nicely played. I still don't really like the 45s UTG though. Very few players at 25NL are observant enough and make any effort to put you on a range. 45/10 aren't thinking past first level enough to make this profitable. The 45s is only important in your range to add value to the other hands in it. The regs may be aware but most hands are going to end up against this villain. In the above hand If Villain was on the button, but the flop had missed you, would you continue to rep the Ace? If villain was observant he wouldn't call you with A10 in or out of position. Check position stats in poker tracker for these type of hands and check how they are doing.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I'd much rather raise 54s UTG at 25NL than at 200NL and it's not even close.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jasons0147
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jasons0147
My image is very nitty which is part of the reason why im raising preflop with 45 suited.
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I think if you want to make little plays like this preflop you should make them in position vs. positionally unaware opponents so that you can gain a good chunk of information.
You played postflop well there. |
Raising in early position with a weak hand like this is something I do maybe every 10 orbits. I may do it a little more often when Im at a real nitty table, like this one. Table was filled with typical 25NL 20/17 regs, with the exception of villan who is 45/10. The great thing about a hand like this is that it disguised so well, I mean who thinks a 15/13 nit like myself is raising 45 suited utg? |
I don't know of many 25NL players who factor in position when considering ranges.
Also, if my table fills with 20/17s and there isn't an ATM there, I generally leave.
If I want to look psycho I hammer the CO and Button.
I'm not 100% that these are the correct plays, but I think they're decent.
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jasons0147
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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Your right about the whole table selecting thing, and I tend to get up from these tables when there filled with players like these. It just so happened that I was 8 tabling and didnt have a chance to switch out tables yet. The purpose of posting this hand was not to talk about preflop, but flop play and betting out a strong hand and getting called down by much worse. Trust me when I say that running 15/13 Im not raising hands like 45 suited that often no matter what my position is.
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