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A hand history with 2 fundamental questions

  
 
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pokerroomace
Old 07-25-2007, 12:42 AM     Post subject: A hand history with 2 fundamental questions #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is 26/16 over 38 hands.

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Hero (SB): $983.48
BB: $154.42
UTG: $458.00
MP: $178.40
CO: $362.10
BTN: $415.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt J K (6 Players)
UTG raises to $14.00, MP folds, CO calls $14.00, BTN folds, Hero calls $12.00, BB folds

Flop: ($46) 3 9 J (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $33.00, CO folds, Hero raises to $100.00, UTG calls $67.00

Turn: ($246) 3 (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: ($246) 6 (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $125.00, Hero ???

I call preflop because I have good implied odds if I hit a straight or flush.

I'm not sure how to play the flop. Should I just call or is the checkraise alright? I don't usually checkraise a hand this weak, but I didn't want him staying in the hand with crap.
What are the pros and cons of checkraising?
Is it better to just call? How do you react to a turn bet?

Once he's called my checkraise I know he has something. I don't really want to put anymore money in the pot. I check. If he bets now I'll fold, but he doesn't.

River is another fairly harmless card. At this point I want to make a $50 blocking bet into the $250 pot. If he raises I'll fold. Do you think the blocking bet is good? Or is it better to check call a bet by him?
He might not even make a bet with a wide range of his hands if I check and might just check it down. Also, by betting I get value from Jx (where x is not an Ace) and it is unlikely he bets Jx for value if I check to him.

If I make a blocking bet, he will probably only raise with a strong hand or as a bluff. Not that many players are capable of bluffraising the river though. I used to think I could bluff any blocking bet, but too many donks make that bet as a value bet and some good players may even make the blocking bet to induce a bluff, so it's hard to raise a $50 for him without a hand.

I thought about this hand for unusually long when I was going to sleep last night. I was annoyed that I didn't make the blocking bet and it inevitably cost me $75.

You'll be happy to know that I read a bit about blocking bets on 2p2 today and when I played later on in the evening I got some extra value from making the blocking bet. This bet was a 1/2 pot blocking bet though.
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sauce123
Old 07-25-2007, 01:25 AM #2 (permalink)  
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im pretty sure ur call preflop is -ev against this set of players.

C/C flop should be your default line

I would fold to the river bet or perhaps C/R but never call
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Da GOAT
Old 07-25-2007, 08:48 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
im pretty sure ur call preflop is -ev against this set of players.

C/C flop should be your default line

I would fold to the river bet or perhaps C/R but never call
C/C flop was my immediate thought on flop, C/R id imagine is just spewy.

C/c flop hoping he gives up and you take it away on river since you are OOP and you may get a VB in.

FWIW Id call Axs PF no problem, KJs i dont see why not but id like to know how the hand strength decrease in value in these spots
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DennisGPunkt2
Old 07-25-2007, 12:32 PM #4 (permalink)  

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I think calling here OOP sucks. Because even if you hit a draw, you will have big problems playing it right.

On the flop I'd put out a bet, just to see where i stand. If i get called I'm pretty much done with the hand. I might C/C the turn, but fold to any bet on the river.

As played, if you check the turn, u pretty much have to C/F the river. With your Checkraise you turned your hand into a bluff. Depending on villains stats and on your image i'd put him all in on the turn, representing a set. But open up your cashier, as you are about the reload
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pokerroomace
Old 07-25-2007, 03:16 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisGPunkt2
I think calling here OOP sucks. Because even if you hit a draw, you will have big problems playing it right.

On the flop I'd put out a bet, just to see where i stand. If i get called I'm pretty much done with the hand. I might C/C the turn, but fold to any bet on the river.

As played, if you check the turn, u pretty much have to C/F the river. With your Checkraise you turned your hand into a bluff. Depending on villains stats and on your image i'd put him all in on the turn, representing a set. But open up your cashier, as you are about the reload
i messed this hand up. This is actually the most I've lost with KJ in my last 23k hands. Both my KJo and KJs are showing nice profits. Probably because I don't usually play them so retarded.

Is checkfolding the river standard? Or is a 1/5 pot blocking bet good here?
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DennisGPunkt2
Old 07-26-2007, 07:01 AM #6 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerroomace
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisGPunkt2
I think calling here OOP sucks. Because even if you hit a draw, you will have big problems playing it right.

On the flop I'd put out a bet, just to see where i stand. If i get called I'm pretty much done with the hand. I might C/C the turn, but fold to any bet on the river.

As played, if you check the turn, u pretty much have to C/F the river. With your Checkraise you turned your hand into a bluff. Depending on villains stats and on your image i'd put him all in on the turn, representing a set. But open up your cashier, as you are about the reload
i messed this hand up. This is actually the most I've lost with KJ in my last 23k hands. Both my KJo and KJs are showing nice profits. Probably because I don't usually play them so retarded.

Is checkfolding the river standard? Or is a 1/5 pot blocking bet good here?

I'd not block here... You will get called/raised 100% and we know we are behind.
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Fnord
Old 07-26-2007, 08:00 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I would fold to the river bet or perhaps C/R but never call
Explain this, looks like an easy call to me.
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Andypandy
Old 07-26-2007, 08:04 AM #8 (permalink)  
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What about c/c-flop and b/fold turn?

... and c/c or c/f river depending on which cards that fall?
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DennisGPunkt2
Old 07-26-2007, 09:59 AM #9 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I would fold to the river bet or perhaps C/R but never call
Explain this, looks like an easy call to me.

Just thought about it. My turn suggestion was pretty bad. The turn should be raised or folded.

Still, I think we are way behind villains range. He has atleast AJ, more likely QQ or something in this spot. His check on the turn was probably just for pot control, do not not get check raised by a set, which would put him in a difficult position. On the river however he would call any bet we would put out there, so i do not see why we should put out a bet.

I'd probably not call a riverbet, because i do not see him betting the river with any hand we would beat. I just don't think he is betting the river with TT, 99 or QJ.
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pokerroomace
Old 07-27-2007, 06:15 PM #10 (permalink)  
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he could bet the river with a missed draw. that's the only hand we beat.

it is a draw-able board and we only need to be right 25% of the time. still, i think check-folding the river is the best line. even if he does have a draw, a lot of players will just check the river.
his small bet could be a cheap shot at a bluff with his missed draw. or it could be a value bet with AJ or an overpair.

he did have AJ and won the hand.

what i wanted to do, but didn't because someone next to me encouraged me not to, was:
bet $50 as a blocking river bet. if he raises i fold. i think he would just call with a wide part of his range which is AJ and an overpair. we get value from Jx too if we bet that we wouldn't have done if we checked.
in this situation i would have saved myself $75. it's true that when he calls my bet i am very often behind, but i've saved quite a lot of money by betting.
i may have saved enough money to make up for the fact that i'm behind most times that i'm called.

it may be the easier way out, but if i'm not skilled enough to make this "tough" decision then making the blocking bet may be my best option.

after reviewing the hand i think checkfolding the river is the best line. but the problem is we're being offering good odds to call.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 07-27-2007, 06:56 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I would fold to the river bet or perhaps C/R but never call
Explain this, looks like an easy call to me.
We're losing to everything but a FD. I actually really like a c/r here, i think it's super sick. He probably doesn't have a great hand or he would've bet the turn. He likely has a hand like Jx or QQ+ (okay well he told us he had AJ but this range is obvious).

Oh god sauce c/r here is just so sick.
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pokerroomace
Old 07-30-2007, 02:16 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I would fold to the river bet or perhaps C/R but never call
Explain this, looks like an easy call to me.
We're losing to everything but a FD. I actually really like a c/r here, i think it's super sick. He probably doesn't have a great hand or he would've bet the turn. He likely has a hand like Jx or QQ+ (okay well he told us he had AJ but this range is obvious).

Oh god sauce c/r here is just so sick.
ye.. the thing is. a lot of players call with AJ and QQ+ here
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sauce123
Old 07-30-2007, 03:38 AM #13 (permalink)  
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all we rep here also is a goofily played set or AA KK and at this level i dont think anyone will put us on either of these
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noble007
Old 07-30-2007, 10:11 AM #14 (permalink)  
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As played, I think its marginal but you can justify calling that river - given the straight and flush draws.

But yeah, be uber careful calling pfr with KJs or even QKs , thats one of the biggest leaks in my game - getting involved in 40-70bb pots with top pair and being outkicked - & boy do you feel stupid afterwards - hello semi tilt.

Rather 3 bet/fold , or if you're going to call pre flop then c/c flop & b/f turn or even c/f turn if one pair no draw is the best thing you got going.
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