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Renton
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09-18-2006, 08:16 PM
Post subject: A hand a actually thought i played well! (for a change)
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Villain is a fairly solid lag.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($712.45)
SB ($233.95)
BB ($200)
UTG ($718.10)
Hero ($206.05)
CO ($152.60)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A , K. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG raises to $8, Hero raises to $25, 4 folds, UTG calls $17.
Flop: ($53) 6 , J, K (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $37, UTG calls $37.
Turn: ($127) 6 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.
River: ($127) K (2 players)
UTG bets $45, Hero calls $144.05 (All-In), UTG calls $99.05.
Final Pot: $415.10
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
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I don't get it. I would just call the river. What calls your bet that you are beating? I think you split this with most opponents and lose to KJ. Do you think Villain has a 6 here? I don't think a J calls this.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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I think getting it allin on the river isn't a bad choice here, but I probably bet the turn here as you are likely ahead. Unless you put villain on KJ or a 6...
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
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johnny_fish
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nh
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
I don't get it. I would just call the river. What calls your bet that you are beating? I think you split this with most opponents and lose to KJ. Do you think Villain has a 6 here? I don't think a J calls this.
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I agree with this here. Most players arent folding a boat and you only beat a boat with a 6 and I really dont think a solid LAGG is going to be playing a 6 like this OOP and even if he were I think he could fold a 6. A solid player is also going to be folding a J here. Call.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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so you are saying to forgo all the value we get from hands like JJ/QQ/AA etc
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
I don't get it. I would just call the river. What calls your bet that you are beating? I think you split this with most opponents and lose to KJ. Do you think Villain has a 6 here? I don't think a J calls this.
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I agree with this here. Most players arent folding a boat and you only beat a boat with a 6 and I really dont think a solid LAGG is going to be playing a 6 like this OOP and even if he were I think he could fold a 6. A solid player is also going to be folding a J here. Call. |
What if VIllain has a set of Jacks? We shouldn't necessarily presume that villain is competent without a read.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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not pushing this river is absolutely terrible imo
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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Location: Montreal, Canada
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I agree. Are we that scared of KJ? I'm probably more worried about quads than KJ.
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Family Cruise IMO
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mcatdog
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
not pushing this river is absolutely terrible imo
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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i should have been more specific, i was wondering what everyone thought of the turn checkthrough (for river value). I don't think the river changes things much.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
so you are saying to forgo all the value we get from hands like JJ/QQ/AA etc
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I dont think a solid lagg would play JJ like this that often in a reraised pot and they would not stack off with QQ or AA.
In all honesty I dont think the differences between pushing and calling are that big. A 6 is definitely unlikely and he could fold that, a "worse" K will obviously call but them calling doesnt giuve us anymore value. We get value from JJ which is unlikely and possibly a 6 and lose to KJ which I think is more likely than JJ. Should we push here? Sure, but to say it is horrible not to is a huge exaggeration.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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What he have?
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30%
Still looking for my royal flush.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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There isn't much difference between calling and pushing in typical hero villain relationships. If you've opened up his calling range then of course it's a mistake not to push. Your hand is otherwise obvious, and solid opponents only call if they're taking some or all of the pot.
The extra money you're putting in is seeking a tiny edge at best if you're a tagg. I'm sure if you did the math it's barely correct to push, but it's not a huge difference to call.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Silly String
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09-19-2006, 01:57 PM
Post subject: Re: A hand a actually thought i played well! (for a change)
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#15 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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The only thing I can think of is if your metagame with this LAG will get a call from a 6 or JJ. A solid LAG would not call devoid of good reason.
There is no way you can put villain on JJ ahead of KJ. You can make KJ 16 ways but you only make JJ 6 ways. The play with each would be similar on all streets, and a LAG is fully capable of calling a pre-flop reraise with KJ.
In other words you should only push if you think a 6 will call.
I am not indicating a push to be bad with metagame concerns, but I think you only get called by a better hand if your opponent is solid. Whether or not he is solid is up to your read?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Villain is a fairly solid lag.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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dsaxton
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Just bet the turn and allow him to lose some money. What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
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dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.
Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check.
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Robert
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kokkedal, Denmark
Posts: 1,109
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I dont want to be a dick here renton, but isnt this hand pretty standard. I know that checking the turn with a made hand in a reraised pot is pretty unorthodox, but with this board and a solid player as your opponent its clearly (imo at least) the best play.
NH man
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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No one seems to give the LAG credit for a 6. A lot of posters seem to be advocating betting the turn and that is going to pot commit us to a CR. So does everyone stack off here to a LAG in a re-raised pot, if the river is not a King?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
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dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.
Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check. |
Ok, let's assume he interprets your check as weakness. On the river, he checks, trying to show something down. All the hands you mentioned that would check the turn here would also check the river. You bet, he figures out that you have a hand and folds. What have you accomplished other than giving him a free card in a big pot?
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Harry
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philly
Posts: 722
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Just bet the turn and allow him to lose some money. What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
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I don't think check through looks like a slowplayed anything. It looks like weakness, especially to a lag. I like everything about this hand.
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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he had QQ
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
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dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.
Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check. |
I agree. Checks are weak, and that's why we mix in strength. It's not the other way around.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
he had QQ
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How long did he tank before calling? Just curious.
Well played.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
he had QQ
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lol hes a fish. he beats nothing you reraise with.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
he had QQ
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How long did he tank before calling? Just curious.
Well played. |
not long
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
he had QQ
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lol hes a fish. he beats nothing you reraise with. |
he beats a lot of hands I reraise with but bluff the river with
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
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dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.
Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check. |
Ok, let's assume he interprets your check as weakness. On the river, he checks, trying to show something down. All the hands you mentioned that would check the turn here would also check the river. You bet, he figures out that you have a hand and folds. What have you accomplished other than giving him a free card in a big pot? |
Too bad 1/2 players don't think like this at all ..
The push is standard btw. You are almost never beat (usually at worse you're chopping) outright, and worse hands do occasionally call. Villain made a blocking bet on the river and might convince himself that Hero pushed as a bluff sensing weakness due to the blocking bet. There is also metagame value (well, not too much at 1/2nl) to not showing down your hand.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
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dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.
Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check. |
Ok, let's assume he interprets your check as weakness. On the river, he checks, trying to show something down. All the hands you mentioned that would check the turn here would also check the river. You bet, he figures out that you have a hand and folds. What have you accomplished other than giving him a free card in a big pot? |
Too bad 1/2 players don't think like this at all ..
The push is standard btw. You are almost never beat (usually at worse you're chopping) outright, and worse hands do occasionally call. Villain made a blocking bet on the river and might convince himself that Hero pushed as a bluff sensing weakness due to the blocking bet. There is also metagame value (well, not too much at 1/2nl) to not showing down your hand. |
Yeah, $200NL players will call you down on every street, which is another reason why you bet the turn. I still don't see how checking this turn is anything more than fancy play syndrome.
The river is an obvious push.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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im pretty sure QQ folds to a turn bet
Being results oriented, this was clearly the optimal line. Not being results oriented, i wasn't sure it was, so thats why I posted the hand.
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