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thenonsequitur

08-12-2006, 02:32 PM Post subject: Greetings From This Forum's Newest NL Fish

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Please bear with me. This is a long post. I thank in advance anyone patient enough to read it through, and apologize in advance for putting to sleep anyone patient enough to read it through.

INTRODUCTION

Hi. This is my first post in a NL forum on FTR.

I am thenonsequitur. I am 23 years old and I live in Brooklyn. I have been playing poker and posting on FTR for somewhere between 1 and 2 years. When I joined FTR I was a bad player and I thought I was a good player. FTR has made me a good player and the members are of such a a high caliber that FTR is has sometimes made me feel like I am a bad player. I have mostly played 6-max LHE cash games (NL tourneys occasionally). Over 60k hands of 6-max LHE I am a winning player. My regular stakes are 3/6.

Anyway, I recently decided that I'm going to stop playing LHE for a while and focus on learning NL. I have several reasons for making this decision:

1. (The hobby point of view) NL hold'em will provide me with new interesting challenges and new kinds of poker puzzles to solve. I just feel like a change from LHE.

2. (The profit point of view) I hear that a good player in NL hold'em has a bigger edge than a good player in LHE, and I hear that variance is easier to control in NL. I figure I should learn this game because in the long run it will probably make me more money.

3. (The unified theory of poker knowledge point of view) I strive to be a better overall poker player, so I should try to learn a variety of different poker domains.

METHOD

I've decided to ignore the general advice that poker should be learned in full ring, and decided to jump right into $25NL 6-max. I learned LHE by jumping right into 6-max, and that worked fine for me.

I am WAY OVER-ROLLED for $25 NL, and I recently got a well-paying job that makes it easy to replenish my roll, so if I lose a lot of money by learning at 6-max, it's not a problem for me.

I plan on doing some catch-up reading in the NL forums over the next few weeks, but in the mean time I figured it would be useful to play a few rounds and go right into posting some hands. Below are a few that I picked out from my first session of NL.

THE HANDS

Please be very harsh and as critical as you can. Respond like I am a NL newbie, because I am. Call me an idiot if I was an idiot.

I don't have good reads yet, because I am not very good at the game, but I will post whatever reads I gathered (just be aware they may be bad reads).

Also note that I've removed the table type summary and stack sizes from the hand histories. I did this to avoid clutter. All of these are from $25NL. I don't think the stack sizes are relevent for most of these hands. {EDIT: Okay, people are telling me that stack sizes are never irrelevent, so I've added back in the stack sizes for all hands}.

Hand 1 Playing in position with a read. 4-handed

BB ($12.61)
Hero ($26.70)
Button ($22.55)
SB ($22.60)

I noticed the BB was calling preflop and then donking the flop a lot.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5

, 5

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) 6

, 7

, A

(2 players)
BB bets $1, Hero raises to $3, BB folds.

Final Pot: $6.10

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $6.10.

Good pre-flop raise?
Given my read was this a good flop raise, or just stupid?

Hand 2 Drawing heads-up. 4-handed

UTG ($12.86)
Hero ($24.30)
SB ($25.40)
BB ($22.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J

, 8

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, SB (poster) calls $0.65, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1.75) 5

, 6

, 7

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.5, SB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($4.75) A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB calls $2.50.

River: ($9.75) T

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, SB folds.

Final Pot: $19.75

Results in white below:
Hero has Jd 8d (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $19.75.

Good way to play a strong draw that then comes in?
I'm especially looking for any comments on the river play.

Hand 3 TPTK. 5-handed

BB ($25.50)
UTG ($11.51)
Hero ($25.65)
Button ($23.50)
SB ($25.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, K

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) 6

, A

, 3

(2 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25.

Turn: ($2.60) T

(2 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.75.

River: ($4.60) A

(2 players)
BB bets $3, Hero raises to $8, BB raises to $13, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $30.60

Results in white below:
BB has 9s Qs (flush, ace high).
Hero has Ad Kc (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: BB wins $30.60.

My first AK and my first TPTK at NL. How'd I do?

Hand 4 Pre-flop selection. 5-handed

UTG ($19.49)
MP ($13.45)
Hero ($25.35)
SB ($33)
BB ($2.01)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J

, T

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, 2 folds, BB checks.

Standard fold?

Hand 5 Medium pocket pair with an overcard. 6-handed

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($16.07)
MP ($8.95)
CO ($12.11)
Hero ($29.85)
SB ($32)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J

, J

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.5, SB (poster) calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP calls $1.25.

Flop: ($5) 5

, Q

, 7

(3 players)
SB checks, MP bets $0.25, Hero raises to $3, SB raises to $6, MP calls $5.75, Hero folds.

How do I interpret MP's min-bet? Or is that just too read-dependent? I didn't know what to make of it, so I just raised the same amount I would have c-betted had he checked to me.

I think the fold was pretty clear after the SB check-raises, right? Or should I call with odds (nobody was close to all-in here, if that helps).

BTW, the guy that min-bet had top set and the guy that check-raised had middle set.

Hand 6 Weak TPTK against an aggressive villian. 4-handed

BB ($10.54)
UTG ($21.78)
Button ($18.51)
Hero ($25)

Button had been playing very aggressively since I sat at the table.

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, 6

. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) 6

, 5

, 2

(4 players)
Hero bets $1, BB folds, UTG folds, Button raises to $3, Hero raises to $8, Button folds.

Final Pot: $12

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $12.

I read his limp from the button as weakness. Given this read, was my post-flop play any good? How about my pre-flop play?

Hand 8 A whole lot of checks. 5-handed

UTG ($25.50)
MP ($11.76)
Hero ($25.90)
SB ($22.80)
BB ($25.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2

, 2

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) Q

, 9

, K

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($1) 6

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

River: ($1) 8

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $1

Results in white below:
BB has Jc 4c (high card, king).
MP has 3s 3d (one pair, threes).
Hero has 2s 2h (one pair, twos).
SB has 9c 7s (one pair, nines).
Outcome: SB wins $1.

I'm in position here, and everyone is showing weakness. Should I claim this pot at some point? If so, what size bet should I place to do so?

Hand 9 Drawing multi-way. 6-handed

BB ($12.79)
UTG ($28.25)
MP ($11.79)
Hero ($25.30)
Button ($30.80)
SB ($18.83)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9

, 2

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.50) 8

, 7

, 4

(6 players)
SB bets $0.25, BB calls $0.25, UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, Button folds, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.75, UTG folds, MP calls $0.75.

Turn: ($5.75) 5

(4 players)
SB bets $5, BB folds, MP folds, Hero calls $5.

River: ($15.75) 8

(2 players)
SB calls $12.58 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $28.33

Results in white below:
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins $28.33.

Was my pre-flop call too loose?

On the flop is this a good way to build a pot? Is building a pot like this a good idea? What sort of bet should I make, if any?

On the turn SB seemed to be representing a made straight. Was my call any good? (I just picked up a gutshot to go with my flush draw).

That's it for now. Thanks.

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Irisheyes

08-12-2006, 02:54 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

Hi welcome to SHNL.

Firstly you need to include stack sizes with these hands. Unlike in limit, in NL the stack sizes are incredibly important because they influence the size of every bet we make.

1) Perfect.

2) bet more on the turn. River bet is fine I guess because fish will call with less then Jd.

3) Raise the flop. Your letting him see the turn too cheap. Raise bigger on the turn. Just call the river, your hand didn't really improve much. It just looks like it did. Every hand you should have feared on the turn still beats you.

4) Raise or limp. Against fish I like limp more. Fold is bad.

5) This is fine. Treat the minbet like a check. Easy fold to the c/r.

6) I like it. pf and post are fine given read.

8) Raise pf. Post flop is fine as played.

9) fold pf. flop is ok, call is good too. Turn call is a spew.

andy-akb

08-12-2006, 03:24 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Note: Stack sizes in NL are incredibly important and should be posted with any hands

1. This is fine

2. Id make a larger turn bet out of preference, but yours isnt bad. The one things Im not too sure about is your river bet. After about a 1/2 pot bet on the turn with a very strong hand you have a less strong hand on the river but bet harder, why? If I think my opponent will call with worse hands and never check/raise bluff then Ill bet about half the pot and fold to a raise.

3. Dont let the BB set the price for the hand, treat his minbet on the flop like a check and bet what you would have typically bet, ~$2. As played I raise the turn more and on the river Im really not sure. Villain suddenly wakes up on the river and makes a standard bet while he had been minbetting the whole way down, this worries me that he was slowplaying. You raise and he 3bets, without a read I think I fold this, with have trips with the best kicker, but villain is representing something stronger. In the first hand you missed the flop and somebody lead into you for more than a minbet and you raised, in this hand they lead into you for less and you hit but still didnt raisr, why?

4. This is fine, sometimes I may raise it depending on how the table is playing

5. Treat his minbet like a check, Id bet $4 there. As played you need to fold, SB c/red a 3bet, thats showing a ton of strength and MP called your 2nd pair is no good.

6. Im really not sure how Id play this. Nearly every turn card is a scare card but our hand right here really isnt that strong so I dont want to get too committed with it. Im really not sure of this spot.

8. You should be raising here preflop. As played Im not putting any bets in with the smallest underpair and a 4 way pot.

9. Im not sure why you are playing this hand at all, fold preflop. In multiway pots Im more likely to play a draw passively because we really arent getting much fold equity, Id probably just call the flop bet. On the turn I fold because given the SBs stack he can barely pay us off if we hit and thats assuming he is willing to stack off on a spade or 6 river.

Warpe

08-12-2006, 05:07 PM

#4 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

Welcome to the dark side.

TerryToma

08-12-2006, 05:59 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

hand 1. nh / read

work on your river play
hand 2. I dont like the river bet. 1/2 pot it.
hand 3. Raise the donk minbet on flop. As played just call the river.

Dont pot-sized bet/rr's medium sized hands on the river. Only better hands call or raise, no worse hands will.

read this thread about the 1bb bet: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40802.htm

use position
hand 8. If on the button and everyone checks to you on both the flop & turn, take a stab at the pot. Its yours. .75$ or 1$. Any player with a king or queen usually bets into you on turn.

dont build a pot with a weak draw in a multiway pot
hand 9. Fold turn. Bad raise on the flop, there is a good chance someone else is on a flush draw, most likely higher than you. You are in danger if you hit. Plus no one is going to fold.

Juicing the pot with a nutdraw is a great idea multiway though. You are building towards an all-in at some point when you hit.

thenonsequitur

08-12-2006, 09:48 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Thanks for all the advice so far everyone. I'm starting to figure out some of my misconceptions about NL (some things work in LHE that just don't work in NL). Multiple posters pointed out my first big misconception that stack sizes are not always important; I've added back in stack sizes for all the above hands.

thenonsequitur

08-12-2006, 09:53 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Quick question about hand 3, the TPTK hand with AK. It's pretty unanimous so far that the flop call was bad and I should have raised. Is there no merit in waiting for the turn to raies? My thinking was that the board wasn't particularly scary, so I wasn't very concerned about giving a cheap card. I wanted to let a weak ace or mid pocket pair go ahead and make a larger turn bet and then put in a raise there when he's a little more committed to call down with a holding weaker than mine than he would have been against a flop raise. Is this bad logic (does it make less money on average than just straightforward value-betting?).

Warpe

08-12-2006, 10:08 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenonsequitur

hand 3, the TPTK hand with AK... My thinking was that the board wasn't particularly scary, so I wasn't very concerned about giving a cheap card. I wanted to let a weak ace or mid pocket pair go ahead and make a larger turn bet and then put in a raise there when he's a little more committed to call down with a holding weaker than mine than he would have been against a flop raise. Is this bad logic (does it make less money on average than just straightforward value-betting?).

ANY board is scary with only TP. Raise to protect your hand.

thenonsequitur

08-12-2006, 10:16 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Another question. For hand 8 (pair of deuces in position after a limper), the concesus seems to be to raise preflop. So how much should I raise, and what am I trying to accomplish with my raise? Do I raise to get it heads-up with position and initiative, to hopefully to take it down with a flop c-bet?

jackvance

08-12-2006, 11:02 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenonsequitur

You raise to 4BB+1BB if limper before you, because you are on the button.

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

mcatdog

08-12-2006, 11:17 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenonsequitur

1) 25NL has a lot of bad players who like to call a raise pre-flop and fold to a bet on the flop.
2) Build a pot. It's a lot easier to stack someone with a set if the pot was raised pre-flop.

TerryToma

08-13-2006, 12:07 AM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenonsequitur

Villain would have bet more than .25 if he himself had an A to protect his hand. You have to raise to find out what he has. If he just calls, hes most likely on a draw. Many times he will fold, and the pot is your right there. Other times he will make a big re-raise and you will have to lay down TPTK. Its a lot cheaper to find out on the flop if you are beat, rather than waiting till the turn or river when the bets get much larger.

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