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Good ol' AQ.. what to do...

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griffey24

11-06-2009, 04:00 AM Post subject: Good ol' AQ.. what to do...

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Hand 1
-Villain in this hand is Alexander T from stars, reg
-Haven't played with him in a while, I'm sure I've spewed to him somehow in the past, if he remembers
-villain is 24/19/2.78 with utg stats of 24/24 (loooosey goosey)
-call or shove river?

$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($640)
CO ($606)
BTN ($610.05)
SB ($321.70)
Hero (BB) ($812)

Pre-Flop: ($9, 5 players) Hero is BB

UTG raises to $18, 3 folds, Hero calls $12

Flop:

($39, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $24, Hero calls $24

Turn:

($87, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $60, Hero calls $60

River:

($207, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $174, Hero ?

Hand 2
-this is a hand a friend of mine played, I don't really like any of his sizing anywhere, but comments on hand aside from sizing would be good
-Villain in this hand opens a lot of buttons, has been stealing a lot and he has 3bet him a few times
-This is the first 3bet he has called all sesh and folds to a lot of 3bets in general (fold to 3bet around 65-70%)
-no real reads on his postflop play in 3bet pots
-villain is playing 20/17/2.8

$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($709)
UTG+1 ($687)
CO ($639.75)
Villain (BTN) ($600)
Hero ($603)
BB ($1,113.05)

Pre-Flop: ($9, 6 players) Hero is SB :Ac: :Qs:
3 folds, Villain raises to $15, Hero raises to $60, 1 fold, Villain calls $45

Flop:

($126, 2 players)
Hero bets $66, Villain calls $66

Turn:

($258, 2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks

River:

($258, 2 players)
Hero bets $90, Villain goes all-in $474, Hero ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

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meeloche

11-06-2009, 04:25 AM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

1) It's close but if you think he b/c AJ and A9 then shove seems good. I personally think he'll b/f those and may not even bet those this big so I would just flat.

2) I don't really get what he has here and I'd like to know how much he 4 bets. I would usually bet the turn. With your sizing on the river you very well could have induced something but without history I think I'd just fold.

Da GOAT

11-06-2009, 02:15 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Dublin

Posts: 4,308

id prefer c/r on turn in hand 1 since we are oop especially, id c/r river too since i doubt he will fold any 2 pairs getting decent enough odds.

hand 2 - sick but with no reads its bad move to call

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

Marshall28

11-06-2009, 07:52 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 1,198

In the first one, if I'm not c/r'ing the turn I'm definitely looking to c/shove the river. I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image.

Second one I agree w/ meeloche. River sizing definitely will induce this quite a bit. I like the way the hand was played up until the river. River bet needs to be bigger to insure villain can't bluff shove.

Alexos

11-06-2009, 09:04 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Montreal

Posts: 2,766

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall28

. I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image.

fo real? Might as well do -ev plays all over the place then, you'll certainly get that image across.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Second one I agree w/ meeloche. River sizing definitely will induce this quite a bit. I like the way the hand was played up until the river. River bet needs to be bigger to insure villain can't bluff shove.

So instead of betting small and having his Ax hands call and his bluffs to shove over, you'd rather make it big so that both these hands can fold?

Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.

griffey24

11-06-2009, 09:10 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall28

So instead of betting small and having his Ax hands call and his bluffs to shove over, you'd rather make it big so that both these hands can fold?

Well I'm pretty sure he just means he'd rather bet bigger to ensure he doesn't fold the best hand to a shove, if he's not planning on calling a shove. It's not like someone's full range on that shove is just bluffs.. clearly there's value there.

Its probably not a great idea to make an inducing sized bet if you're not calling a shove.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

Alexos

11-06-2009, 09:11 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Montreal

Posts: 2,766

Hand 2: I think villain would bet his flushes and QJ type hand on the turn 95% of the time. Also the best hand you have here is like AK, and since its 2009 and ppl are hand reading decent a bluff shove is def possible given your gay sizing. Then again some are just not capable of bluffing here ever.

Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.

griffey24

11-06-2009, 09:20 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

OK for those that haven't noticed, I'm villain in this hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

Hand 2: I think villain would bet his flushes and QJ type hand on the turn 95% of the time.

I don't really agree with this. Yes I agree that if I had a flush on this turn, I'd probably bet fairly often. But if I had a read that villain c/f's turns that would give me a little more incentive to check it back. Clearly if I knew villain was the type to bet/check/bet then I'd be even more likely to check it back, knowing I still had opportunity to get it in on river shove.

As for QJ, I think I'm checking QJ back here fairly often to balance with most of my Ax range on this board and then betting river if checked to again, as I would do with my AX range.

I think if villain c/f's this turn, then he was probably going to ck ck turn and c/f river anyhow. If villain takes b/ck/b line here then he was probably going to c/c turn if I bet. Seems like its best to see two checks with QJ here before betting river... unless you wanna run a two street bluff that is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

Alexos

11-06-2009, 09:41 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Montreal

Posts: 2,766

yea re-read the action, for some reason this hand is the reverse of what you showed me on msn:P

you can have a flush or QJ there more often i guess, but i still believe most ppl expect you to bet the turn with it most of the time albeit 95% was obv an exageration

Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.

Renton

11-06-2009, 10:07 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

id lead teh flop in hand one and call river

2) 3betting pre seems pretty not smart. postflop meh, i suppose he could bet a little larger on river, but it all looks ok to me, so long as he folded

griffey24

11-06-2009, 11:36 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

2) 3betting pre seems pretty not smart.

Are you basing this on villain's high fold to 3bet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

noble007

11-06-2009, 11:40 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: London

Posts: 531

Hand 1 I would never shove river, looks like a very tight call actually.
What does he think he is getting value out of on the river that you check called the flop and the turn with OOP & didn't raise?
I think he therefore at worst has A9s/AJ +- 8 combos but has 12-15 combos that are better.

Hand 2, my 2 cents, easy call for hero and if you are villain is not a good bluff but good for value.

Hero would expect you to raise his CB alot if u had a flush draw because his CB range would be pretty wide & polarised on an A high flop.

So by the turn he probably thinks you have very few flushes in your range, even moreso by the river and if you had floated flop with a hand like QJ you would prob bet turn to represent the flush.

So on the river when your range has a very limited amount of flushes/QJ/AK you shove pre/Probably raise flop with sets/2pr etc.

Any hero would have a hard time folding tp2k in a 3B pot here.

So his bet is more likely to get value from worse or induce from worse that realises it's no good.

Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..

Ravageur

11-07-2009, 12:05 AM

#13 (permalink)

Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 1,242

hmm...don't have any deep thoughts. I would prob just call hand 1 since 150 bbs deep and shove if only 100bbs.

I would c/call the river in hand 2 - in a rr pot are we expecting to get looked up light here? I think our best bet is to hope villain turns a hand like j10-910 into a bluff (hoping we fold jj/qq/kq or something).

Family Cruise IMO

Marshall28

11-07-2009, 12:36 AM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 1,198

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall28

. I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image.

fo real? Might as well do -ev plays all over the place then, you'll certainly get that image across.

LOL, I said if he might fold AJ/A9. This assumes that there is a non zero % of the time those hands call, that % goes up the more frequent players think I bluff raise the river.

Alex, why comin after me?

griffey24

11-07-2009, 12:58 AM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravageur

hmm...don't have any deep thoughts. I would prob just call hand 1 since 150 bbs deep and shove if only 100bbs..

It's 100bbs, guess that means shovzilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

Renton

11-07-2009, 01:21 AM

#16 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

2) 3betting pre seems pretty not smart.

Are you basing this on villain's high fold to 3bet?

yeah if he's not even calling dominated hands it just seems like a massive waste to 3bet it

Alexos

11-07-2009, 01:55 AM

#17 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Montreal

Posts: 2,766

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall28

. I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image.

fo real? Might as well do -ev plays all over the place then, you'll certainly get that image across.

sry if it seemed that way. But justifying a bad play for metagame/image purposes doesnt seem that good thats all.

Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.

ATOTHEC101

11-07-2009, 06:37 AM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2008

Posts: 1,248

hand 1: river's really close, I'd probably shove, just a problem whether he even calls with aj a9.

hand 2: I think 3 betting pre is fine, just because he folds to a decentish amount of 3 bets, but hardly an obscene amount isn't enough justification in my mind to be flatting oop vs a competent opp when this guy's btn range will be super wide. I'd go for $156 on the river though I think c/cing is a viable option, as played, I'd fold, I think calling would just be compounding your original river sizing mistake.

"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.

Ravageur

11-07-2009, 06:55 AM

#19 (permalink)

Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 1,242

oh thought this it was 2/4 not 3/6. Yah i'd shove then i guess but my 150 bb comment was just because i noticed there was quite a bit behind for him to call off and the more behind = the more times he only calls with better hands not worse. It's still close.

Family Cruise IMO

Toadstool

11-10-2009, 11:34 AM

#20 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 442

Toadstool will become famous soon enough

About shoving river, I'm not sure enough draws missed to warrent him calling with worse if you do shove, as I assume he wouldn't expect you to value shove with <2 pair, also when you call the turn you probably dont have something to go with your draws pair/gutter etc. so if he expects you to raise Qxss and J10ss on the flop a high % of the time, he can discount it from your range somewhat when you do take this line. So the draws I'd imagine you'd C/C turn with are usually Axss, 10 8ss, K10ss (most likely) and all but one of those is now >TP....he'd also have to think you capable of turning Axss (which isn't two pair - A10ss) into a bluff.

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Good ol' AQ.. what to do...

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