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euphoricism

11-19-2006, 10:29 PM Post subject: good, bad, ugly?

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 3,610

Villains is your standard 22/16ish guy. He could be drawing, could be made, and could have me overpaired. You fire a turn?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($123.10)
SB ($95.85)
BB ($21.20)
Hero ($58.40)
MP ($32.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8

, 8

.
Hero raises to $1.5, 2 folds, SB calls $1.25, 1 fold.

Flop: ($3.50) 6

, 2

, 5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB raises to $6, Hero raises to $15, SB calls $9.

Turn: ($33.50) 4

(2 players)
SB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $20...

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AHiltz

11-19-2006, 10:51 PM

#2 (permalink)

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And your image is?

11-19-2006, 11:15 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,855

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHiltz

And your image is?

That would be nice to know.

Without knowing I'm probably checking behind on the turn and seeing what the river brings and how our opponent reacts. Our hand has decent showdown value and our opponent probably isn't going anywhere if we bet (he check-raised you on the flop and then called your re-raise)...Check behind and reevaluate on river.

And, just a random observation here, Eupho...It seems the way you think about the game, and the way you ask questions about the game, I dunno, it seems like you're always looking for the 100% correct play. Kind of like how you'd go about playing limit. There are standard plays in NL, but it's not a game where there is a correct play to make 100% of the time.

Renton

11-19-2006, 11:35 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

threebetting the flop is bad. You really should only be making that threebet with the nuts, big draws, and bluffs/semibluffs, IMO.

With a hand like this, you don't want to blow him off the part of his range you have beat (which is to say, not much). I would actually fold the flop against most tags.

Your overpair is so weak that he could even have a flushdraw and overcard and be a favorite. If you really think your hand is good, then just call the raise and get all in on a blank turn.

euphoricism

11-19-2006, 11:56 PM

#5 (permalink)

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UG you bring up a good point about the 100% correct line. I assume the reason I think that is because of my LHE background where there usually was an exactly correct line.

But its also symptomatic of someone who is not getting the underlying reasoning for any particular action at the table.

So between the two, it seems like I'm missing a lot of the "why" in NL.

So ok everyone, not only what are you doing but why are you doing it. Concentrate on the why

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11-20-2006, 01:50 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I made that comment because I know your background is in LHE. Making the transition to NL is tough, or so I've heard, because it's not as much about the mathematics as it is about playing the player. I've read some of your stuff on another forum and, at least to me, it seems like you understand the game well enough but you're still somewhat (for lack of a better word) clueless as to what you're doing, what other players are doing, etc.

I also know that you're playing around eight tables at a time (correct me if I'm wrong), and I think that could be a huge reason for why you're not doing great things at this game yet. My suggestion would be to cut back to no more than four tables so you can watch the action around you. Figure out what the bets at your tables mean. It's like a conversation, your bets (and your opponents bets) are saying things.....what do they mean?

As far as this hand goes...Preflop is fine but you need to think about what type of hand your opponent is calling with. You're playing against a 22/16, so, its you're typical tagg. This player is also playing out of the SB, and for taggs their ranges to call raises (typically) in these spots are PP's and/or AK/AQ/KQ.....and that's just about it (most of the time).

On the flop the SB checks, you bet, and he check-raises you. What does that tell us about our opponents hand? He could be bluffing, sure, but I'd say that our pair of eights looks mighty vaulnerable here (given your read of your opponent, board texture, the betting sequence, etc). Seeing as how 88 looks somewhat iffy at this point you need to call his check-raise and see what he does on the turn, me thinks.

Instead of calling his check-raise, you 3-bet him...If our tagg doesn't have a hand he will fold.......but he probably wouldn't have check-raised you if he didn't have a hand. Taggs generally check/fold in these spots. So you 3-bet him and he cold calls. Hmm.....dude seems *really* strong here.

Turn looks like a brick and he checks to us.....whew, close call there that he didn't bet. Now we can maybe show down this cheaply at the river.....but wait! You bet on the turn. He's already shown strength twice by check-raising and then cold-calling our 3-bet....why bet here? So you can get blasted off the hand? So you can get pushed on and have to either fold or call knowing you're almost 100% behind? Opening up the betting here is bad bad bad without a very strong hand, given the previous actions of both players.

At least that's how I'd probably think about this hand if I were in your shoes. I think because you've changed games and you're playing so many tables you see an over-pair like this and want to take it to the felt every time....There's a time and a place for that, Eupho, I just don't think it was in this hand.

euphoricism

11-20-2006, 06:42 PM

#7 (permalink)

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You sir, rule.

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Fnord

11-20-2006, 07:12 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

The pot manipulation in this hand sucks. You're left with just over pot on the turn when you really either want lots of money behind or about pot or less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bigred

11-20-2006, 07:23 PM

#9 (permalink)

PROFESSIONAL TROLL

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Location: Nest of Douchebags

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Instead of calling his check-raise, you 3-bet him...If our tagg doesn't have a hand he will fold.......but he probably wouldn't have check-raised you if he didn't have a hand. Taggs generally check/fold in these spots. So you 3-bet him and he cold calls. Hmm.....dude seems *really* strong here.

Hyp situation: Op is usual tag who cont bets more than 50% of time. flop is 6 high and op cont bets. You always fold?

Euph's op is a tag, not a UG nit. While I agree with your reasoning I don't think you can use this quoted assumption as strongly as you want to. As for 3bet call, op could be semibluffing or have a medium pp but no balls to rely on read of missed AK and push. I see ops get in call down mode like this all the time wiht medium pps. Doesn't have to be incredibly strong.

LOL OPERATIONS

11-20-2006, 10:39 PM

#10 (permalink)

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33 and 77 are the only medium pairs here that don't have us crushed.

P.S. I'm not the Ultimate Nit anymore. You can't play like I used to in 6-max and hope to make moneyz.

bigred

11-20-2006, 11:51 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

33 and 77 are the only medium pairs here that don't have us crushed.

P.S. I'm not the Ultimate Nit anymore. You can't play like I used to in 6-max and hope to make moneyz.

I'll believe it when I see it. The few times you made moves it was with TK vs my TT on a T high board.

LOL OPERATIONS

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