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JL
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05-12-2008, 08:30 PM
Post subject: Good or bad time to 4-bet?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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SB = Tagg regular 22/17 who is three-betting light in this spot very often.
BB = unknown with smallish stack so probably donkish.
If I 4bet here like I did, I am pot stuck and have to call a 5bet shove. However, if SB shoves, I am pretty sure he has me crushed because he is quite a solid multi-tabler.
My image is quite laggy right now. I have been very active at this table, stealing a lot of blinds.
Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
4 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $245.50
Hero: $735.90
SB: $490.20
BB: $247.40
Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with Q  Q 
UTG folds, Hero raises to $14, SB raises to $48, BB calls, Hero raises to $184
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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I might make it a little smaller to give him some illusion of fold equity. You have the nuts and getting it in preflop is fine
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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pretty standard 4bet/call.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Dean's right on, I'd make it like 120-130 and get it in here.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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122/call
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Okay 120-130 is the standard size for me when facing one opponent, but here there is a cold-caller in there now, so we still make it only 2.5x the 3-bettor's raise??
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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we are crushing the short stack so we arent to worried about him.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
pretty standard 4bet/call.
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Yeah I agree that it is pretty standard. I am just way too results oriented and need some reassurance sometimes.
Results in white:
SB shoves, BB called, I call. SB has AA, BB has AA I spike a Q and take down one of the biggest pots of my life!
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Fucking awesome results. A+
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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oh wow fwiw i didnt even notice the coldcall, sorry. i dont think it changes a ton but i would definitely still 4bet to maybe 135 and call a shove
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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okay wow, i thought this was 200nl and i couldnt figure out why everyone wanted to felt QQ for 250bb deep.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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EASY flat pre with position
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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huh?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
EASY flat pre with position
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I like this too tbh
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
EASY flat pre with position
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I guess there is some merit to flatting pre.
But I think 4betting in my case is best because of my crazy 32/27 image at that table.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
EASY flat pre with position
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I guess there is some merit to flatting pre.
But I think 4betting in my case is best because of my crazy 32/27 image at that table. |
wait how is calling and taking a 3 way 3 bet pot a good thing here?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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saves our stack and preserves our implied odds when beat, underreps our hand when ahead.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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ok those are positives for calling but that doesnt prove to me it is better.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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its better because by shoving you get it in vs a range of QQ+ AK weighted very heavily toward KK+ while totally neutralizing your positional advantage.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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how will it be heavaily weighted towards KK+? QQ+ AK are always getting in. sometimes JJ or something worse gets it. And we pick up lots of money with no flop when they fold.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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ive actually been getting into these spots a fair amount recently. i normally just flat and get it in on any non A/K high flop. i dont like 4 betting that much, because i dont think villain gets it in with JJ/TT, because he probably realizes we arent 4 betting worse, with the exception of AK, which is a flip.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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yeah i would flat if my image wasn't 'super laggy' and instead only lagtaggish
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Seems like the question is:
Is the 4bet FE+equity against villains preflop stack off range > the EV of calling and playing 3way ip.
With no A or K in our hand, the possibility of an A/Kxx flop is 41%. To me that seems like a lot to always fold to a cbet.
So either calling some Kxx flops, or 4betting preflop TO ME sounds like a better play.
But better players then me likely did the math on this and know for sure.
Do we assume villains at these stakes shove over with AK or JJ- more often if we 4bet smaller?
Is there really a big difference in villains shoving range compared to his shove calling range?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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ok
1. The reason i said "heavily weighted toward KK+ is because its very tough for the coldcaller to have AK, so if we shove and he calls he is always going to have KK+.
2. If we call, position plus the 3-way pot dynamic will ensure we never get it in bad, and that we will always get it in good.
3. Set value vs KK/AA/AK represents a lot of our ev in calling, ev that would get chucked out the window if we shoved.
4. Calling keeps TT/JJ type hands in, whereas theres a decent chance those hands will fold if we shove.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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My comments below are not I disagree with you. It's just that I see the pros and cons of both plays, but don't know how to weigh the arguments correctly (in a lot more situations btw):
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
ok
1. The reason i said "heavily weighted toward KK+ is because its very tough for the coldcaller to have AK, so if we shove and he calls he is always going to have KK+.
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Are we really ever afraid of the coldcaller having KK+? Imo he'll call a shove with JJ more often then he has AA here.
SB of course has KK+ in his range, as a lot of other stuff...so by shoving we do pick up lots of dead money....but you know this.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
2. If we call, position plus the 3-way pot dynamic will ensure we never get it in bad, and that we will always get it in good.
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Agree, besides QQ vs KK+ on lower flops of course...but agree that this is an important point for calling.
On the other hand, without really knowing SB's lighter 3bet hands, are we giving up on any A/K boards?
Because, as pointed out, that's 41% of all flops which means we should make up a lot on flops that are non-A/K...against an assumably relatively wide range of SB.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
3. Set value vs KK/AA/AK represents a lot of our ev in calling, ev that would get chucked out the window if we shoved.
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Agree. The way you say this tells me you are very sure that our set value is a large part of the calling EV. Can you confirm this?
Is there much difference in QQ vs 22 then?
4. Calling keeps TT/JJ type hands in, whereas theres a decent chance those hands will fold if we shove.[/quote]
Agree.
If I'm right, with us having QQ, 50% of all flops will be J or lower, so there should be a decent amount of postflop value against JJ-.
You are sure this makes up for all the times we win the 102 pot preflop by shoving? + the rare times we'll get called by AK/JJ?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops
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Why do you say this? Do you think JJ-TT is turning their hand into a bluff on this flop? I really think everyone's going to be pretty in line. The only guy capable of making some sort of move is going to be afraid of the short unknown behind him.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops
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Why do you say this? Do you think JJ-TT is turning their hand into a bluff on this flop? I really think everyone's going to be pretty in line. The only guy capable of making some sort of move is going to be afraid of the short unknown behind him. |
sure they're gonna check when they have TT-KK
but I'm talking about a general flatting strategy with QQ in position vs a light 3-bettor (ignoring the weird dynamic of a 3-way hand like this one if we were to flat) who will fire A hi flops 100% of the time when they have air, which is why I think it's better to flat a hand like A9s in this spot than QQ if we're gonna give up on A or K hi flops.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
if sb bets Axx/Kxx, i'm folding for sure.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops
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Why do you say this? Do you think JJ-TT is turning their hand into a bluff on this flop? I really think everyone's going to be pretty in line. The only guy capable of making some sort of move is going to be afraid of the short unknown behind him. |
sure they're gonna check when they have TT-KK
but I'm talking about a general flatting strategy with QQ in position vs a light 3-bettor (ignoring the weird dynamic of a 3-way hand like this one if we were to flat) who will fire A hi flops 100% of the time when they have air, which is why I think it's better to flat a hand like A9s in this spot than QQ if we're gonna give up on A or K hi flops. |
Yeah, I thought we were talking about this hand specifically though. I agree with you about a HU hand vs a light 3-bettor.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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i m too lazy to do the math but I'm pretty sure if we fold QQ on A or K hi flops whenever SB (who 3 bets a wide range) c bets we're getting owned pretty badly
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
i m too lazy to do the math but I'm pretty sure if we fold QQ on A or K hi flops whenever SB (who 3 bets a wide range) c bets we're getting owned pretty badly
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This is what I am afraid of as well.
As mentioned, 41% of flops will be A/K high.
So we sure have to win some money on the flops we don't fold.
I think Renton knows more about this......
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tarath
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 101
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just poker razor it and see that 4betting is wayyyyy better.
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riverturnflop
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4-betting is better but I like it more if the bet size is a little smaller.
Seriously, does anyone ever bluff here?
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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You need a good reason not to get stacked with QQ pf. I prefer 4betting almost always. Also, don't be worry about BB, he is a half stack fish, he can have J7 here.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Odds God
he is a half stack fish
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o wow, pretty important detail i missed
yeah, i 4-bet always.
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