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meeloche
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01-16-2008, 04:28 AM
Post subject: General oop question
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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You have 2 choices for a 50nl game when oop:
A: 3 bet top 1/2 of villains opening range.
B: call with any hand in top 1/2 of villains opening range and donk lead any flop that gives you any pair or draw including gutters and backdoor fd's.
(excluding premium hands that you would 3 bet AK, QQ+)
Both A & B use roughly the same amount of chips.
(I realize there are so many what if's and opponent dependent responses but if you can try and ignore those for the moment.)
Would you pick A or B?
Discuss...
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kettleofish
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Helllllo Richard
Posts: 333
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Assuming all pots are heads-up? If i had to pick one to do forever, it would be A. Option B just seems to easy to exploit if your opp is paying attention (since you'll be donk-leading a lot of flops if u are doing so with any pair or draw). I know it will be hard for opp to put you on a hand, but it will also be hard for you to call a raise most of the time.
Both have there merits tho, in fact i've been experimenting recently with a combination of the two. 3-betting PF then donk-betting the flop. It's amazing how often ppl will fold to that shit 
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There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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A because iniative ev > post flop positional ev imo so you should usually bet/raise with a hand that is ahead of your opponents range.
(But dont blindly 3bet hands in top 1/2 of his range - type your hand is P-stove and make sure its a 50%+ fav vs his range - sometimes they're different.)
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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A because iniative ev > post flop positional ev imo so you should usually bet/raise with a hand that is ahead of your opponents range.
(But dont blindly 3bet hands in top 1/2 of his range - type your hand is P-stove and make sure its a 50%+ fav vs his range - sometimes they're different.)
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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One thing I have always wondered about 3 betting is the reasoning behind 3 betting the top 1/2 of villains opening range. If his calling range is ahead of our 3 betting range isn't a 3 bet essentially a bluff?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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B seems like the better strat to me. Not sure why tho.
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
One thing I have always wondered about 3 betting is the reasoning behind 3 betting the top 1/2 of villains opening range. If his calling range is ahead of our 3 betting range isn't a 3 bet essentially a bluff?
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No your hand has more equity at this stage (top 1/2 or 50%+ fav) vs his
range so you should raise, just like any std raise pre-flop.
(& the size of the 3bet (usually 12bb) is balanced so that it is big enough for him to generally be making a mistake to call with the bottom end of his range but small enough that it is also a mistake for him to fold too much & wait for hands in the real top part of his range to play back with.)
(When you raise/3bet a low sc pre flop - a hand likely to be significantly behind your opponents range, this is essentially a bluff.)
I think but dont take my word for it.
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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against good players I'd pick B and against mediocre/bad players I'd pick A usually depending on how they play flops
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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cowboyardee
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 66
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Do you guys feel option B would be a bit unbalanced, taking value away from AK, QQ+ against any opps paying attention?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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fold equity
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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kettleofish
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Helllllo Richard
Posts: 333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
fold equity
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Je nais comprende pas, monsieur. Elaborate for the less psychic among us?
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There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by noble007
Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
One thing I have always wondered about 3 betting is the reasoning behind 3 betting the top 1/2 of villains opening range. If his calling range is ahead of our 3 betting range isn't a 3 bet essentially a bluff?
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No your hand has more equity at this stage (top 1/2 or 50%+ fav) vs his
range so you should raise, just like any std raise pre-flop.
(& the size of the 3bet (usually 12bb) is balanced so that it is big enough for him to generally be making a mistake to call with the bottom end of his range but small enough that it is also a mistake for him to fold too much & wait for hands in the real top part of his range to play back with.)
(When you raise/3bet a low sc pre flop - a hand likely to be significantly behind your opponents range, this is essentially a bluff.)
I think but don't take my word for it. |
I think this makes A the best option. Since the majority of people at 50nl are so clueless in 3 bet pots they are garenteed to make a mistake 99% of the time when they aren't holding AA or KK.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
against good players I'd pick B and against mediocre/bad players I'd pick A usually depending on how they play flops
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I think B against good players could have some merits however I have no means to try this out since being at 50nl. Can some of the other higher stakes players confirm this?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
fold equity
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I think he mean's along the lines of noble's post. People will make the mistake of folding too much with the middle part of his range or not enough with the bottom part of his range which our range dominates. Plus it gives us the initiative postflop leading opp to make similar mistakes postflop.
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Kamawoop
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 81
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Quote:
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(I realize there are so many what if's and opponent dependent responses but if you can try and ignore those for the moment.)
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I'm not sure it is possible to ignore these factors and give any meaningful advice. I don't even fully know whether this is heads-up, or against an opponent whom you want to get heads-up in a larger game.
Either way, how he plays post-flop would have an influence on how I played pre-flop.
EDIT: not just a small influence, given the stark choices of A or B for preflop play - it would depenend entirely on how villain plays post-flop.
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