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leftygrove
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07-08-2010, 03:00 PM
Post subject: Frequencies question
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#1 (permalink)
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Two Pair
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 27
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A somewhat new trend in lower limits is players doing stuff like opening super wide in CO, BU, and SB. I 3-bet these players light very wide, because most of the time, they're holding trash. But that means I have to value 3-bet them wide, and I'm not sure how to balance it.
Let's say a guy opens 60% of buttons over 100 hands and folds to 3bets 50%, and 4bets 15%. What range do you think you should be 3bet/5betting for value with in the small blind? (100 big blind stacks, the player in big blind is passive and won't cold 4bet bluff almost ever).
What about a guy who opens 100% of buttons? 100% of small blinds?
Thanks.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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instead of us telling you which exact hands to do it with, it's a better idea for you to download pokerstove if you haven't, and play with it as this is more about the math.
easy example would be if someone is fairly tight opening from these spots and you are 3betting only premium hands for value, lets say: JJ/QQ/KK/AA/AKs/AKo, then maybe a few junkier hands like 67s, A3s etc
your value 3bet range here is ~ 3%
so if someone is stealing a large amount and you want to say double your 3betting frequency then you'd want to double your value range as well, so let's say 6% value hands
just as an example, in stove you can see that this could be a range such as: 99-AA, ATs-AKs, AKo, AQo
here's a question for YOU:
if you find that the person is either 4betting or folding, what kinda hands do you want to 3bet them with... conversely if you find that instead of 4betting they are calling a lot more often - what hands do you want to 3bet with?
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leftygrove
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Two Pair
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 27
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Thanks for the response, and the interesting counterquestion.
I think you'll want to 3bet hands that play better postflop against a guy who flats 3bets. So if he flats more so than 4bets, you should 3bet some hands like KTs, T8s, hands that can flop flush and straight draws, in addition to pairs. Your value range should probably be narrower because his 4bet range is stronger.
Against a guy that 4bets and folds more often, you can 3bet pretty much any weak hands (T3s or whatever) because you're probably playing for stacks anyways. Your 3/5bet value range should be wider, since his 4betting range is wider.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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pretty good answer, definitely spot on if they 4bet or fold - just pick whatever some super crap too.
my general approach when people call tons of 3bets is ( i think this is called merged range?) is to just do it with a really wide value range so including suited broadways, stuff like AJo or whatever, but not hands like 33 or 77 or other hands that have a hard time flopping something good.
If you're gonna 3bet hands like T8s or whatever against these players ensure you're only doing it IP.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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just 3-bet the holy shit out of them and widen your value range by 5-bet jamming hands that have >30% equity vs their stackoff range
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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yep that works if you dont mind a very high variance game and thus results: this assumes that your opponents will adjust and start 4betting as bluffs, otherwise those hands with ~ 30% equity are gonna get crushed over and over.
good hands with that kinda equity are usually hands like small pairs or A2s-A5s
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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meh, "high variance" isn't something we have the privilege of avoiding anymore, gotta take every edge these days
Its not that high variance though, you take down like 35bbs a ton and the times you don't you suck out a lot. Relatively low variance.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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also one nice thing about embracing 'high variance' plays is that it gets nits to play abc and straightforward against u in the future.
so remember to always always make a note when u 6bet jam A3o or whatever ridiculous thing u have done recently
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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would you say that most abc nits are going to see you 5bet jamming these 30% type hands and then in the future mostly just 4bet for value with very few bluffs KNOWING you can jam light, or do you think they are going to start 4bet/calling wider thus WE could tighten our 3bet/jam range against them in the future?
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HiLo
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
just 3-bet the holy shit out of them and widen your value range by 5-bet jamming hands that have >30% equity vs their stackoff range
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Any advice on estimating their stack off range when we have too little history to get a firm range from hands shown down/hud stats?
One of the HEM articles has some good advice on adjusting our 4bet/call range based on villain's 3bet%. Do you use a similar adjustment to estimate their stack off range from their 4 bet figure? Or do you start off 5 bet jamming something like 22+, mid SCs until they start calling with non-premiums and then adjust accordingly?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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vs obvious nits would clearly just 3-bet them as bluffs a lot, I was just talking about the 5betting as an adjustment to players who don't suck
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bspahn
would you say that most abc nits are going to see you 5bet jamming these 30% type hands and then in the future mostly just 4bet for value with very few bluffs KNOWING you can jam light, or do you think they are going to start 4bet/calling wider thus WE could tighten our 3bet/jam range against them in the future?
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id typically just 4bet them with AK+ QQ+ so that i dominate both of their possible adjustments
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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