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r8ed
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07-11-2006, 05:26 AM
Post subject: Folded KK preflop
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Tonight was a horrible session where AA and KK (and every other hand) got crushed. I was ahead in every hand too, except one KK running into AA 1/2 stack preflop. Then this hand comes up. I had 50 hands on Villain and he's 20/0 (not a large sample). He pushes over my raise. What I've come to find out the hard way is when this happens with a player who never raises and has more than a full buyin it's KK or AA and when I hold KK it's AA. Compounding it is I had already raised UTG 3x. Anyway, he said he had KK. I never fold KK preflop but this seemed like a good spot. The problem is, if this is at the beginning of my session I probably call. I logged off all my tables right after.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
CO ($177.66)
Button ($63.09)
SB ($152.15)
BB ($103.60)
UTG ($95.50)
Hero ($101.85)
Preflop: Hero is MP with K , K . SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, CO calls $177.66 (All-In), 3 folds, UTG folds, Hero folds.
Final Pot: $195.16
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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No I never fold here for 100xbbs against a relative unknown.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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His first raise came in a raised/reraised pot. Sure, you've only got fifty hands on the guy but he hasn't raised before this, what else can you honestly put him on? He's only got 50 hands on you, too, so it works both ways. I just can't see a hand that does this other than AA.
Also, yeah, 50 hands isn't a great sample size, but I think that's about the point where I usually start taking people's preflop stats into account.
P.S. If he said KK in the chatbox, I'm sure he had AA.  Good fold, me thinks.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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20/0 and he pushes all-in preflop over your reraise?
good fold
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Only $12 invested with $90 behind. I think you can justify a fold here, especially with a solid read. I have not found the occasion to fold KK pre-flop yet, but this would be as good a place as any. It sounds like you are 50% chance to split & 50% dominated. A wise man once said: "If you are calling an all-in hoping for a split, don't call."
Also and more importantly, good job recognizing your own TILT surfacing, and then quitting to avoid future bad decisions.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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nh sir
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AHiltz
nh sir
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I agree.
Quote:
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Only $12 invested with $90 behind.
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Irrelevant. Investments are sunk costs.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Irrelevant. Investments are sunk costs.
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The point being, not enough of a pot to warrant fighting over when likely an underdog. I should have said only $24 dead money in pot.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i never fold here, you only have 50 hands on the guy.....
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I kind of felt like a loser since he said KK (I believe him) and I had only a small sample size. But 50 hands without raising once is a little crazy. And then I just thought that I was being a pansy because I had a rough night. I feel better now that 8 people didn't come in here call me a nit.
I've run into AA w/ KK about 10% over the past two months - I checked PT. Even when it's a loose donkish player, they seem to have bullets. I have to call those players knowing I'm probably behind - happened earlier last night. This is the first time I folded KK preflop at 6max in 6 months.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i never fold here, you only have 50 hands on the guy.....
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seriously? it would be a tough fold, but you are at best going to be splitting, and most likely chasing 2 outs.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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weak
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i think this is the right play given the reads on villain, and the fact that he had a very bad session. calling this and seeing AA would cause mega-tilt.
and good decision shutting down the tables after this one.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
MP2 ($80.30)
MP3 ($25)
CO ($12.50)
Button ($42.55)
SB ($11.90)
Hero ($32.80)
UTG ($15.75)
UTG+1 ($11.15)
MP1 ($25)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K . MP3 posts a blind of $0.25.
4 folds, MP3 (poster) raises to $1.5, CO calls $1.50, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.
Flop: ($4.85) 8, 5, J (3 players)
MP3 bets $3.75, CO calls $3.75, Button folds.
Turn: ($12.35) T (2 players)
MP3 bets $3.75, CO calls $3.75.
River: ($19.85) 3 (2 players)
MP3 bets $5.5, CO calls $3.50 (All-In).
Final Pot: $28.85
Results in white below:
MP3 has As Ah (one pair, aces).
CO has Qd Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: MP3 wins $28.85.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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dwags222
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gaylord, MI
Posts: 151
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let me guess...you accidentally hit fold? /\/\/\ ???
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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First of all, 50 hands is way too small of a sample size. Overall I'm at about 20/15, but at some tables I'll be at 12/8 after 100 hands and 30/20 on another. So I'm sure after a couple hours of me being 12/8 or so you would probably fold an overpair against me after I check-raise you when a lot of the time I have some kind of draw/etc. Stats can be very very misleading without a decent sample size.
Furthermore, him being 20/0 over 50 hands is pretty irrelevant. Unless you have evidence that he just limps with QQ/AK and also doesn't reraise preflop with them then there is no reason to just flat out assume he has aces. A few days ago I was playing and there was this guy who was like 20/4 over 500 hands, and he raised from the CO and the button repopped him, he quickly called and then check-raised the button all in on a 982 flop, the button thought for a while and called with KK. The nit had TT. Obviously these situations are a little different, but the point is that people overplay QQ/JJ/TT/AK so much that folding KK here is a big mistake. The chances of you running into AA 6 handed is something like 1-44, those odds are too slim to fold.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bode-ist
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i never fold here, you only have 50 hands on the guy.....
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seriously? it would be a tough fold, but you are at best going to be splitting, and most likely chasing 2 outs. |
if this was usually the case i could find a fold
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gebir
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 14
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Can you find a better spot to put your money in? I think so, good fold.
If the guy says he had kings ask him what suit they were cos u wonder whether ur "queens" could have flushed him.
Also a good call to leave I think though it would be nice to check out that guys play for another hour or so to help for next time.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i am not scared to fold kings preflop. if the opp is the type of guy i can put on aces 70% of the time, i will fold if i haven't committed too much yet. I think here is a pretty perfect spot to fold, if he doesn't have aces 70% of the time here, i'd be pretty damn shocked.
i used to play full ring. in full ring, i find it more clear when to fold kings, and I have several times. i've gotten some shorthanded under my belt now, and i've yet to fold kings. for what its worth.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gebir
Can you find a better spot to put your money in? I think so, good fold.
If the guy says he had kings ask him what suit they were cos u wonder whether ur "queens" could have flushed him.
Also a good call to leave I think though it would be nice to check out that guys play for another hour or so to help for next time.
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Better spots are unnessecary in cash games. If you think your play is +EV, then you make it. It's not a tournament where you're looking for the best spots to get your money in.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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last time I folded one of these vs an unknown I got shown 66.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Last three times I folded KK I got shown aces every time.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Good fold.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i got shown 99 and for what its worth i dont think folding KK with 100bbs behind is an option at <400nl.
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