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meeloche
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03-04-2008, 03:46 AM
Post subject: Fold tptk in a 4 bet pot? I know i'm even lol but seriously?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Villain is 11 tabling running 22/16/5.
I guess he's a reg but this is the first time I've played with him. I'm running pretty laggy and my image isn't great but I doubt is paying attention.
Given that this is a 4 bet pot is this auto felt?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($160.85)
SB ($165.30)
BB ($113.25)
UTG ($123.40)
MP ($158.15)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A , K . MP posts a blind of $1.50.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, Hero raises to $5, SB raises to $15, 1 fold, MP folds, Hero raises to $43, SB calls $28.
Flop: ($88.50) J , K, Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.
Turn: ($88.50) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $40, Hero?
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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um no this is not auto felt by any means, imo. this is the worst flop. i mean his range is so tight since its a 4 bet pot. its basically TT+, AK. i add TT and JJ because you are kind of deep.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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I would consider flatting preflop deep against this opponent. He doesn't felt worse. As played, ugly board, just check and fold.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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if you don't like being bluffed off the bets hand ever then bet 2/3 pot on flop and fold if he wants to put any money in the pot
another way of playing it is to not put another cent in cuz you beat nothing and usually reasonable taggs won't try to bluff you off of AA, which you can definitely have when you check this flop. maybe call a bet on the riv if it gets checked through to there.
btw I'm gonna stop posting for a week cuz I can't see str8 anymore after the past bajillion hands of poker I've played so my advice might not be worth shit right now.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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i like genitrue's advice, i usually do ....don;t doubt yourself bro, u r dead on....
imo ... if you are going to 4bet this, i want to 4bet way bigger than what you made it. i want to make it in the 55-60 range because of how deep you are... basically i want it to be clear to villain that i dont plan on folding which is gonna keep him out w/ hands you are behind like TT/JJ/a scared QQ. plus it makes it much easier to felt this flop (YES EVEN THIS ONE) if the pot is like 120 and you only have that much behind.
i know this will be interpreted as a little spewy, but my argument is that the size of the 4bet changes villains perception of your range ...i.e. tells him you want to play a big pot, so he better be prepared. even on this flop against a 2pr or a set or whatever u do have equity. plus there are lots of other good flops that can come for u.
in general i dont like the idea of flatting AK pf unless super deep, suited, and in position. this is an ok spot to do it, especially at 100nl since players tend to not want to get the money in preflop light.
i dunno, i just feel like i dont want to flat call and fold to a non A or K board then felt if it coems K high cuz i feel like its a reverse implied odds situation, plus i dont like to get bullied, so im destined to spew in some circumstances.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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i also want to make sure the dynamic is established that villain isnt gonna mess around w/ me this deep and that he can't 3bet me light w/out consequences, the bigger 4bet accomplishes all this.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Someone stated they like a call of the 3 bet this deep. First I don't think 150 bb is really that deep, secondly this is a perfect stack size to 4 bet and push the flop.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
Someone stated they like a call of the 3 bet this deep. First I don't think 150 bb is really that deep, secondly this is a perfect stack size to 4 bet and push the flop.
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I reeeeally don't think pushing the flop is good here. He's not calling with AQ/AJ I don't think. He miiiight fold QJ potentially to a push but probably not.
So pushing is definitely skewing his range to calling better and folding worse.
Checking behind is fine I think. I doubt he flats a 4-bet pre with any hand that has an open ender on this flop (maybe TT) so if he's behind he's drawing thin. I call turn and fold to river shove.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
another way of playing it is to not put another cent in cuz you beat nothing and usually reasonable taggs won't try to bluff you off of AA, which you can definitely have when you check this flop. maybe call a bet on the riv if it gets checked through to there.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Checking behind is fine I think. I doubt he flats a 4-bet pre with any hand that has an open ender on this flop (maybe TT) so if he's behind he's drawing thin. I call turn and fold to river shove.
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I really like both of these lines in this spot.
Pf, is my betsize ok or is the consensus to go bigger like marshall said?
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
Someone stated they like a call of the 3 bet this deep. First I don't think 150 bb is really that deep, secondly this is a perfect stack size to 4 bet and push the flop.
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I reeeeally don't think pushing the flop is good here. He's not calling with AQ/AJ I don't think. He miiiight fold QJ potentially to a push but probably not.
So pushing is definitely skewing his range to calling better and folding worse.
Checking behind is fine I think. I doubt he flats a 4-bet pre with any hand that has an open ender on this flop (maybe TT) so if he's behind he's drawing thin. I call turn and fold to river shove. |
I didn't mean push this flop, but pf your stack sizes are perfect for a 4 bet and to push most flops.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
Someone stated they like a call of the 3 bet this deep. First I don't think 150 bb is really that deep, secondly this is a perfect stack size to 4 bet and push the flop.
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I reeeeally don't think pushing the flop is good here. He's not calling with AQ/AJ I don't think. He miiiight fold QJ potentially to a push but probably not.
So pushing is definitely skewing his range to calling better and folding worse.
Checking behind is fine I think. I doubt he flats a 4-bet pre with any hand that has an open ender on this flop (maybe TT) so if he's behind he's drawing thin. I call turn and fold to river shove. |
I didn't mean push this flop, but pf your stack sizes are perfect for a 4 bet and to push most flops. |
and this would show a profit 150bb deep vs a 22/16?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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I'm not really sure, I should have posted something saying it was just a concept I was thinking about. I take it I am wrong here. I was in a very similar spot the other day and it got me thinking. With stack sizes is calling the 3 bet and making a lot of moves on the flop good?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
imo ... if you are going to 4bet this, i want to 4bet way bigger than what you made it. i want to make it in the 55-60 range because of how deep you are... basically i want it to be clear to villain that i dont plan on folding which is gonna keep him out w/ hands you are behind like TT/JJ/a scared QQ.
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This sounds an awful lot like you're only getting called by hands that beat you so why wouldn't you just 4bet push pre and hope to get calls from JJ-QQ? With AK you are going to miss the flop over 60% of the time anyway. Are you saying you plan to felt whiffed AK after your large 4bet or do you fold b/c you know the villain has QQ+ on a whiff flop 95% of the time?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
imo ... if you are going to 4bet this, i want to 4bet way bigger than what you made it. i want to make it in the 55-60 range because of how deep you are... basically i want it to be clear to villain that i dont plan on folding which is gonna keep him out w/ hands you are behind like TT/JJ/a scared QQ.
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This sounds an awful lot like you're only getting called by hands that beat you so why wouldn't you just 4bet push pre and hope to get calls from JJ-QQ? With AK you are going to miss the flop over 60% of the time anyway. Are you saying you plan to felt whiffed AK after your large 4bet or do you fold b/c you know the villain has QQ+ on a whiff flop 95% of the time? |
well, i wouldnt say that making it the size OP made it changes any of this ... i mean, i dont think villain is flatting any worse unpaired hand. If you read my entire post, the reason I advocated a much larger 4bet had a lot more to do w/ establishing a dominant image at the table and forcing villain into a much more difficult decision.
I hate the 4bet push cuz then you're definitely only getting called when you're beat or by antoher AK sometimes, and it's not accomplishing my original goal, and most particularly, it destroys your image and makes u very readable.
im not that concerned about the flop til i get there, i was focusing on the preflop action, but if you want to talk postflop, now look at the board and the stack sizes, and understand villain's perception of the situation if he in fact called the bigger 4bet ... getting it in now is definitely optimal.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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If he called getting it in now seems like we only hope to push off AA and the 5-10% of junk. We are behind everything else. My assessment of the villain's calling range would be 90% QQ+ and 10% TT+ & other junk. About right? Then we have about 25% equity in this pot vs that range. Now we have to c/f. Any bet obviously commits us.
Nonetheless, I was speaking in general terms not just for this specific hand. It seems we are getting more money in with a big 4bet on a hand that isn't made yet and benefits from seeing 5 cards. In general, wouldn't we rather 4bet smaller & play more post flop poker if we have an edge?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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everything you just said is assuming villain is at least calling no matter what which i think is definitely not the case. my entire reasoning is based on the way i want to establish and keep image.
if u 4bet small and dont get to showdown or are forced off your hand, u will appear very weak and exploitable to anyone paying attention, plus give villain good odds to call w/ a much larger range. PLUS give yourself reverse implied odds since u generally are only gonna win a small pot when u hit an a or k on the flop or lose a big one.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
everything you just said is assuming villain is at least calling no matter what which i think is definitely not the case.
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Thank you. This is what I was missing. 
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
everything you just said is assuming villain is at least calling no matter what which i think is definitely not the case.
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Thank you. This is what I was missing.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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dude i dunno, i could be 100% wrong i just do the best i can and hope people agree w/ me cuz it further validates my own beliefs/understanding of the game.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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at 100nl I don't see how you are ever ahead here, imo he either has the same hand or more likely JJ-AA
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