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Fluid vs. Static thinking (warning: deep abstract rambling)

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Ash256

01-04-2008, 06:00 PM Post subject: Fluid vs. Static thinking (warning: deep abstract rambling)

#1 (permalink)

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Examples of static thinking:

"I have top pair, therefore I should bet"
"AK is a good hand"
"He may have a flushdraw"
"Always 3bet AQ"

Examples of fluid thinking:

Range
Equity
Maximisation
EV

Is static thinking ever good? The top thinkers here always seem to think in a fluid way.

Last time I tried to think in a fluid way (at donkstakes though), I dropped a shitton of buyins..

Fluid thinking seems totally optimal and static totally useless (considering that poker is a game of chance and near-infinite possible situations), yet static seems to keep insanity at bay - is it possible to combine the two opposites?

It seems that to become an expert player it's necessary to implement high-level fluid thinking, amirite?

How do you think?

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mixchange

01-04-2008, 08:06 PM

#2 (permalink)

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First, it is static in of itself to put the game in 2 categories, in terms of "static" and "fluid" so I kind of object to the concept of the thread

But I guess what you just are implying is try to think about the big picture instead of just one fact/idea, which is great.

I'm no expert but here are some of my thoughts.

#1 You have to get into putting opponents on a range. A HUD program is very useful for doing this.

"he may have a flush draw" is part of putting someone on a range, e.g. villain leads a flop, you have to ask if villain would lead with a flush draw as part of his range. Sooo your 'static' idea is part of the 'fluid thinking' As the opponents sophistication increases, so does the levels you have to think to properly put someone on a range.

#2 Once you have put opponent on a range, you can then "Maximize" which is really just making the best decision to make the most money in the long run. This may even be to check/fold. e.g. you raise 4x with 88, villain minraise preflop, a weak player, which often is an high pair, AK/AQ. The flop is KQJ. You check/fold.

Don't forget about losing least with a losing hand vs. one villain is not folding. Plenty of players know how to make money with a set, but often the difference between a losing and winner player is that the winning player can fold a street or two early, or very often preflop with a marginal hand. Then there is turning a losing hand into a winning hand by properly putting on a range and knowing your bluff will win you the pot.

#3 Equity can be very useful for big calls or big bluffs/semibluffs.

Numbr2intheWorld

01-04-2008, 08:47 PM Post subject: Re: Fluid vs. Static thinking (warning: deep abstract rambli

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

Examples of stubborn thinking:
"Always 3bet AQ"

Sorry i just found that funny.

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BigPapi

01-04-2008, 08:53 PM

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Range, Equity and Maximisation are explained in the REM-part of the Professional No Limit HoldEm book by Flynn Mehta and Miller, if you want to read something about it. I find it more understandable how/when to think in these terms, but still some of your static thoughts can be good too.

jackvance

01-05-2008, 11:28 AM

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Hm how were you able to adjust your own abstract thinking? I don't think you can just go ahead and try out new thinking patterns, as by far most of them are subconscious.

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BigPapi

01-05-2008, 02:08 PM

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by reading and understanding what these concepts are (and practicing range for example when not playing), you'll find that in time you'll adopt it in your subconscious thinking

Ash256

01-05-2008, 02:26 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

First, it is static in of itself to put the game in 2 categories, in terms of "static" and "fluid" so I kind of object to the concept of the thread

LOL. Woops...

Thanks for the advice you put down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

Hm how were you able to adjust your own abstract thinking? I don't think you can just go ahead and try out new thinking patterns, as by far most of them are subconscious.

So how did you learn trigonometry in high school?

Although having said that, I do believe that the subconscious is extremely powerful - believe it or not, back in the day when I was unfamiliar with range and used to put opponents on one hand, I used to ask my subconscious what my opponent had, and I'd generally get a close or very close answer very quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigPapi

Range, Equity and Maximisation are explained in the REM-part of the Professional No Limit HoldEm book by Flynn Mehta and Miller, if you want to read something about it.

I'm still trying to get a strong REM thought process; PNL is where I first heard of the term.

I kinda failed to get at what I was getting at in my OP, I'll try to rephrase it:-

A college dropout of top 25% intelligence asks you to train him as a poker player. Except for a couple of drunken homegames, he has never played poker before.

You decide to only teach him fluid thought processes. Not ONCE do you tell him a preflop hand is good or bad, not once do you tell him to always do a particular thing, you only teach him fluid concepts.

How does he fare at poker?

IowaSkinsFan

01-05-2008, 04:34 PM

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You should rename fluid category "thinking correctly" and static "thinking retardedly"

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noble007

01-05-2008, 04:48 PM

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I'll contribute to this thread in a very esoteric (insert - useless) way with excerpts from a howard lederer article on Zen and poker that I actually posted in my blog just yesterday along with some other quotes i found.

I think it touches on the difference between static & fluid thinking.

The Right Mind is like water, freely flowing throughout the body and is fully functional. The Confused (static?) Mind is like ice because it "congeals and settles in one place" thus impairing its functioning and limiting its freedom

You will see if you reach the final level in Zen mastery below your thoughts will be fluid at the poker table even going beyond the level of REM eventually...

1. Beginner's Passion

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

A journey that might lead to poker mastery must begin with passion. There is a boundless enthusiasm in the novice poker player's attitude. Poker is fun. It is played with no fear. There is a lack of self-consciousness. The game is played with joy.

2. The Student Emerges

"He is now forced to admit that he is at the mercy of everyone who is stronger, more nimble and more practiced than he." Eugen Herrigel

At some point, the joy and boundless passion for the game must give way to a structured effort to learn the game. There is a great deal of technical skill needed to succeed at poker. And at the beginning of this journey a great depression can overwhelm the student. He suddenly fears those that are more skilled than he. He longs for the days of blissful ignorance, when he only played because it was fun.

3. Expert Level is Achieved

"He who has a hundred miles to walk should reckon ninety as half the journey" Japanese Proverb

After years of study, a poker player can achieve expert status. If, however, she becomes satisfied in her success, then mastery will be forever beyond her reach. Improving as a poker player is a never ending process. The competition is always changing and adapting. If a player fails to change and adapt also, then the competition will close the gap or, even worse, pass her by.

4. Poker, One Hand at a Time

"If one really wishes to be master of an art, technical knowledge of it is not enough. One has to transcend technique so that the art becomes an 'artless art' growing out of the Unconscious" Daisetz T. Suzuki

Staying in the moment is the path to poker mastery. And it is poker tournaments that present the greatest challenge to this goal. How is it possible to think only about the current hand when you have made bad plays and taken bad beats only minutes before? How is it possible to stay mindful of only the current hand when if you could win this tournament it might change your life? These are questions that can only be answered by each individual player. But, I believe that the study of the Zen arts can lead you down that path.

The beginner has an empty mind. Through diligent practice and discipline, the mind is filled with technique and application and is susceptible to distraction. Through continued training, the mind can ultimately return to the beginner state as the mind no longer fixates on each technique and application. Instead, the mind (and, thus, the body) responds reflexively and freely with no thought as to what the correct movement is at a given time. The mind is not focused on any one aspect but is aware of all aspects.

To play a sport while desiring for gain can make one very nervous. A person might wonder if he or she will ever attain greatness and this wondering will take away from their ability to concentrate on the sport. The moment of intense concentration is the moment when a perfect identification takes place between subject and object, the person and his behavior."

Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..

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Fluid vs. Static thinking (warning: deep abstract rambling)

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