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humanfugitive
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03-23-2010, 05:14 PM
Post subject: flopped tp + nfd deep vs light 3bettor
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 147
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villain is 21/19 11% 3b over 500 hands 3bets in button around 6%
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($61.20)
BB ($46)
UTG ($49.65)
Hero (MP) ($127.95)
Button ($111.30)
Preflop: Hero is MP with 6 , A
1 fold, Hero bets $1.50, Button raises to $5.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $4
Flop: ($11.75) A , 8, 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $7.50, Hero raises to $20, Button calls $12.50
Turn: ($51.75) 2 (2 players)
Hero ?
I couldnt decide between betting or c/bombing
His turn range is likely nut hands, AK,AQ and pairs JJ+. How do i get most value?
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,217
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Fold preflop. This hand just plays pretty awfuly out of position and you've opened in MP so he may not be 3 betting you as light as you think from here. I'd rather 4-bet preflop than flat here for sure if I was intent on playing back.
c/r'ing this flop looks pretty bad. We're never getting him to put anymore money in with a worse hand and we're folding out all underapirs I'd imagine. Just because we've flopped top pair and a fd doesn't mean we need to manipulate it such that he can only continue with a better hand. I'd way rather just c/c flop and non diamond turns to allow him to barrel with his air and yeah just maixmise our EV. If he checks back turn you can value bet the river, you're naked ace is never getting any more than 2 streets max value, if that.
I like leading on d turns becasue it looks kinda FOS and we don't want him checking back/pot controlliong weak-medium aces with this much behind.
As played I don't see why you'd ever want to c/r the turn since you are likely in pretty bad shape and have no FE at all vs any range he can possibly flat your flop raise and bet the turn with. I'd likely either block pretty small since he'l just call with any ace he's called the flop raise with or check if I thought he'd check back AQ and the like. I'm confused as to why you're wanting to maximise value on a turn where you are a dog to his range.
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humanfugitive
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 147
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I guess I forgot to mention our history. He's 3bet me both pre and post flop often during the session.
Both times he did it post flop hes done it with overs on drawy boards against my over pairs. He's shown down double barrels with air.
He's obviously a thinking player so I'm c/r flop because it looks exactly what I want him to think - fds/88/22 so he would peel flop with pairs and weak aces
I think you're right tho. Turn c/shove wouldn't make any sense
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humanfugitive
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 147
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If is turn continuing range is AA,88,AQs+,AQo+, would c/c be best ?
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Mr. Diamond
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: verified poker sponsor
Posts: 237
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my play would be completely different
- I would fold to 3bet pre
- as played I would c/c flop
- as played I would check turn - you are against AK, AQ almost always (as played I think he folds everything else on the flop) and these hands never fold - you have no FE and against AK, AQ you have 31,818% to win - so I would c/c
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humanfugitive
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 147
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k guess i over adjusted his range based on dynamics
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Calling pre is the worst choice seeing as your OOP with a weak Axs. Either 4bet or fold. C/Bomb the flop is pretty good though since you have an A, reducing his Ax hands and tons of out vs the times he has a better one.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Don't really know enough info. to call pre but man c/c flop looks a good amount better than c/r am I wrong?
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Yea, after looking at this some. Calling pre really screws this up and C/R really doesn't get much worse to call on the flop and lets him get away easily. I think with a dynamic like OP said it has some merit, but having him barrel his life away with worse could be better.
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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fold pre or 4bet 100% of the time, id gladly 4bet kinda big in this spot though.
as played check/raise a lot bigger and then shove the turn
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eragotte
fold pre or 4bet 100% of the time, id gladly 4bet kinda big in this spot though.
as played check/raise a lot bigger and then shove the turn
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Just wondering buy why do you prefer c/r flop over c/c? I'm not arguing just curious.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Fold pre and why are you raising the flop? Is it for value or a bluff? You should really think about why you're doing things.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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humanfugitive
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 147
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I raised flop for value due to the equity I had against what I thought his continuing range would be. I'll take it at face value that pre was atrocious.
edit: probably just leveled myself in the moment
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Just wondering buy why do you prefer c/r flop over c/c? I'm not arguing just curious.
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More chance of getting him off A2-AJ by check raising bigger (which he may call) and then shoving the turn, i cant even really see him calling the turn with AQ. I doubt he double barrels this board as well so c/c, c/c pretty much means were showing down vs a better A that we could have got to fold. Basically I think Ax is a lot of his range and I want to use that fold equity by c/r-ing. Also I dont mind if I fold out his okay hand like QQ or bluffs because we dont get value out of em by c/c very often.
I don't want to lead because if he calls were drawing to a flush a lot and by checking he can make a cbet (which he has to do a lot in this spot if he is 3betting light).
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tstrout
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 68
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You can't check raise the turn with any fold equity because the SPR is too low at that point and he's going to call. You could bomb the turn right out with FE, but not by check-raising. The pot has 52 and the effective stack size is only around 85. Once he bets 35 or so, he is pot committed so you have no FE. If you check, all you can do is call and hope to hit; raise is just getting it in bad. You can always hope the fop raise induces a check on the turn or just make a big bet yourself and hope for a fold.
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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i dunno wtf you are talking about but villain bet 7.5 not 35 and i want to raise big to pick up equity that he folds away from hands that are likely to beat us marginally at a show down or split pot
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Fold pre, call is so bad.
How are u raising flop for value? Flop is a clear call.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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flop raise is ok assuming he's not a level 0 nit. now u gotta check da turn
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Robin
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Two Pair
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Waterloo, ON
Posts: 33
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Doesn't anyone want to lead the flop like $10?
Stack sizes are set up so that if he raises we can shove... if he raises then folds we're very happy and most of the time he calls the shove we have 12 outs. If he calls the flop I'd c/c most turns and c/f most rivers.
If this is a really dumb line can someone explain why please?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Ya I like c/r, should induce all sorts of spewtasm, I know I'd do something idiotic if I 3bet and got c/r'ed here.
Nuts what turns aren't you checking?
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin
Doesn't anyone want to lead the flop like $10?
Stack sizes are set up so that if he raises we can shove... if he raises then folds we're very happy and most of the time he calls the shove we have 12 outs. If he calls the flop I'd c/c most turns and c/f most rivers.
If this is a really dumb line can someone explain why please?
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in practice people rarely lead out on Axx flops versus the preflop raiser; we expect him to continuation bet very often on this type of board. if we lead out he can't cbet his air against us. if we did lead out opp will likely fold all his made hands that are weaker than ours and won't put money into the pot with his cbet bluffs.
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humanfugitive
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 147
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If i c/c turn am I leading diamond/6 rivers?
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tstrout
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 68
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I meant that if you check the turn and he bets appropriately with a TPTK type of hand which would be $35 bucks or so, you can't check-raise his likely turn bet because of low SPR and no FE. If you lead out, you have FE; if you check and he bets the turn, all you can do is call to hit or fold because you are likely behind and 12 outs on the river will not be good odds vs. an appropriately sized turn bet from your opponent.
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Mr. Diamond
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: verified poker sponsor
Posts: 237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humanfugitive
If i c/c turn am I leading diamond/6 rivers?
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exactly
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Dex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bringing the mind home.
Posts: 172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humanfugitive
I guess I forgot to mention our history. He's 3bet me both pre and post flop often during the session.
Both times he did it post flop hes done it with overs on drawy boards against my over pairs. He's shown down double barrels with air.
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If villain wants to double barrel worse, let him. Check/call the flop and check/call the turn.
As played, check the turn. I'd be surprised if villain continues with JJ-KK vs your flop c/r very often at all, but if he does, you want to be checking the turn here so you can keep those hands in and lead river hoping villain talks himself into calling cuz the diamonds missed, or you could be playing back, or whatever he needs to think to make a mistake.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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flop raise is ok assuming he's not a level 0 nit. now u gotta check da turn
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Yah this. I would c/c here vs most players, unless they were the type that would float and not believe a raise here. In which case, c/r and turn check is good vs his floats.
People wanting to c/r A6dd here.. would you c/r A6cc? Would you c/r QJdd? If not, the reasons for not c/r those hands are the same as not c/r A6dd.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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nvm. deleted my post, misread griffeys
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eragotte
More chance of getting him off A2-AJ by check raising bigger (which he may call) and then shoving the turn, i cant even really see him calling the turn with AQ.
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I think this is all pretty crazy thinking. I'd imagine that 1) people aren't 3betting crappy aces that often here pre 2) If people did 3bet crappy aces, they would probably check back flop a reasonable amount 3)He expects you to 4bet AK pre, so there's no way anyone in their right mind is folding AQ on the turn, nor should they be.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Your c/r on the flop is too big imo.
Check turn.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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So it's check/call turn, check/fold missed river?
It's like if I'm always facing a river bet after a pre+flop+turn line like this. But then again I don't use it often.
Is the plan basically to;
- hit against a better hand or worse FD,
- c/c 1 streets against underpairs assuming they're never betting more than 1
- and not care about incidentally getting owned by a missed FD barreling us of?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minSim
So it's check/call turn, check/fold missed river?
It's like if I'm always facing a river bet after a pre+flop+turn line like this. But then again I don't use it often.
Is the plan basically to;
- hit against a better hand or worse FD,
- c/c 1 streets against underpairs assuming they're never betting more than 1
- and not care about incidentally getting owned by a missed FD barreling us of?
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I would guess a fd would shove this on the flop a majority of the time, and then a lot of the time not two barrel bluff us when we check the turn. What other draws are in his range? So you're a bit mistaken, we take this line because we aren't going to be bluffed off by a worse hand.
The plan is basically to not turn our hand into a bluff but at the same time with sweet equity its nice to build a pot on the flop. Also, I would guess there's a lot of air in his flop cbet range that we may decide to c/r small to get him off of that. Even if we don't, there's really no other line we could take thats very congruent with a bluff.
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