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donkbee
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07-18-2007, 06:05 AM
Post subject: flopped top 2 in limped pot ($100nl ps)
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#1 (permalink)
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,605
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No reads on the villain except that he's 20/17/5 over 350 hands. Also, we had one hand where I 3 bet him with 55 PF, he folded, and when he saw my hand in a showdown with someone else, he said in the chat, "3 bet me w 55 when I open early?"
Anyway, just wondering the best way to play this hand on the flop. I was planning on folding to a push after this raise. Good or bad? What's a better way to play it?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($98.50)
Button ($50.45)
SB ($198.95)
Hero ($99.50)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , 7 .
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: ($3) 3, 7, Q (3 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $7, UTG folds, SB raises to $18, Hero raises to $45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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once half your stack is in the pot there is no way you can fold.
here's the problem with your raise to $45 - either you scare off most of what you beat or get re-raised by what beats you. I'd just call his rr.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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either you get it all in here, or you get it all in on the turn.
i prefer calling the raise, and seeing if the turn completes the flush. if it doesn't, i'm hoping he bets so i can just stick it in.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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post the 55 hand
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snowbird4life
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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Maybe im missing something here, but you are holding Top Two Pair! Pleasssse whatever you do DO NOT fold here, seriously, you are holding top two on a dry board. Not only that, but about half your stack is in the pot already, you are committed holding top two on a dry board in 4 max 100nl.
*Anyone else who sees this, Does anyone with a 100k+ hand database want to look through and see how often they have a flopped top two beaten by a flopped set in 6 max? It is just sooo rare, rarer than kk beaten by aa preflop i think. I see a lot of similar posts about people holding top two pair on a dry board, and you just can't fold that imo especially at 100nl with 100bb stacks, its almost like folding kk preflop because you suspect aa, you just can't do it. Maybe i should make a separate post discussing this. *
Im assuming you are tempted to fold because you suspect a set(which is the only hand that has you beat...)? Do not fold, you are holding top two!!! get it in. Theres a good chance hes on a draw, a poorly played overpair, or a lower two pair, or some trash and he is just simply mad at you and trying to bluff some chips away. I would be glad to get it all in on the flop, if not the turn if no heart hits.
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,605
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It's okay to stack off in a limped pot with top two?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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If he wasn't in the SB, I'd fold.
I think it's close and might have just called the flop bet or folded to the 3-bet.
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snowbird4life
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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Not trying to be rude in all of this at all but i think so, how often is a flopped top two pair beaten by a flopped set in 6 max? Let alone 4 way action? Wayyy to rare to not stack off for me. Also, this is a flopped top two pair in 4way action on 100nl with 100bb stacks, i just don't see how you can give him credit for a set and fold here pretty much ever. It just seems way too weak.
*I'd *really* like to see some figures on this if someone has a huge db to look through like cocobill or somebody. Just to see how often top two pair is beaten by a flopped*
I think the fact that it is a limped pot is irrelevant once you raise to 45. You pretty much pot committed yourself imo. Also, just because it is a limped pot, i don't think you should be laying down top two pair to reraises either. Also, im not sure i see how the 55 pf raise comment influences the action here? Maybe im missing something but it seems to me this has just made him more determined to get your money. Also, he seems pretty aggressive and he has an af of 5 over a decent sample size. I think my money is always going in on this one.
I don't see how you can put half your stack in with a flopped top two pair with no str8 or flush on board, and then fold to an all in for the last half of your stack assuming he has a flopped set especially in 4 way action on 100nl with 100bb stacks.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by snowbird4life
I think the fact that it is a limped pot is irrelevant once you raise to 45. You pretty much pot committed yourself imo.
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DING DING DING, we have a winner.
Need to figure out where you want to go with this BEFORE re-poping him for half your stack. I don't have a problem either way, I think this is a big IT DEPENDS. Making tight laydowns in small pots to tight opponents isn't a big deal.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by snowbird4life
Maybe im missing something here, but you are holding Top Two Pair! Pleasssse whatever you do DO NOT fold here, seriously, you are holding top two on a dry board. Not only that, but about half your stack is in the pot already, you are committed holding top two on a dry board in 4 max 100nl.
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You are thinking 0 level here; "What do I have?" I agree with your comment that she cant fold if she puts in a 4bet, that should be obvious; however, just because she has TOP TWO doesnt mean she needs to call.
Also, this isnt that dry of a board and if it actually were a dry board, that would be even more reason to fold.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by snowbird4life
*Anyone else who sees this, Does anyone with a 100k+ hand database want to look through and see how often they have a flopped top two beaten by a flopped set in 6 max? It is just sooo rare, rarer than kk beaten by aa preflop i think. I see a lot of similar posts about people holding top two pair on a dry board, and you just can't fold that imo especially at 100nl with 100bb stacks, its almost like folding kk preflop because you suspect aa, you just can't do it. Maybe i should make a separate post discussing this. *
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You are right, top two isnt beaten by a set on the flop very often. But is that the question we should be asking? No. We should be asking how often when we get AI on the flop in a limped pot after 4betting and calling a 5bet AI are we good. The answer is going to be a pretty low number, even at 100nl which really isnt that low of stakes.
In this hand I agree with hypermagachi, you need to play this hand slower. Putting a 4bet in just limits their range to hands that are most likely ahead of us. Call and get AI on most turns, that will give your opponent a better chance to make a mistake.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Anyone in favor of just calling the flop?
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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no, you have to make a flush draw pay to play. But I think the re-raise is always just a call.
Great analysis Andy
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snowbird4life
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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@fnord are you talking about his initial bet? If so, i think i always raise that.
If your talking about the reraise, i think calling here is fine maybe even the preferred line to get all of villains money here, then of course getting it all in on the turn when a non-heart turn falls. This would also give villain less chances to draw to a flush if the money goes in with him needing one heart instead of two.
Are you implying this as well? Or are you implying a different type of line with the flop call?
First off, I don't want to sound like im defending my position to the death here, but i guess im just not totally convinced considering folding the flop is really an option.
@ Andy: I may be thinking zero level here, but im not sure thats a bad thing. It just seems so similar when you get 4 or 5 bet by a tight player when your holding a set, like you can't assume he has a higher set, so you get it in. In my experience flopping top two pair on a dry board and being beaten by a flopped set, is just as rare as set over set, or aa over kk preflop. In both of these situations, almost everyone advocates always getting the money in, so why not here? Especially in 4 player 100nl 100bb stacks, i still don't see how you can get away from this hand. I see the argument about the limped pot and no sense in losing a lot of money. I guess i agree with that most of the time, but in this instance it just seems like your losing value to fold here, to me anyway.
It would be great to see some more people's opinions on this as well. Maybe my thinking is way off, i wouldn't be that surprised as i definitely don't have the experience as some of you. I also really want to find out how often a flopped top two pair loses to a flopped set in 6 max. I think im going to make a thread about two pair, flopping top two, or just flopping two pair even, and if you should almost always stack off when there is a nonflush nonstr8 board or when if ever and what spots you should fold. Should be interesting.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by snowbird4life
@fnord are you talking about his initial bet? If so, i think i always raise that.
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Why? What's your plan after raising?
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snowbird4life
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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I don't think its terrible to just call but i think i raise mostly because:
1) I want to build the pot.
2) I don't want to give away another card/I don't want to see a heart on the turn, so why let him see it for 2 dollars?
3)I want to know where im at in the hand/what type of hand he may have, by just calling, what do i know?
My plan after that would be to get it all in on the flop, or call his reraise and try to get it all in on the turn.
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bef99hwk
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Manhattan, KS
Posts: 107
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i think 45 with a flush+gut shot or more likely q3 or 73. Don't think he would bet the set on a dry board like that....
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by snowbird4life
1) I want to build the pot.
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O RLY? Is this a stacking hand against this opponent?
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snowbird4life
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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imo, yes. lol.
Lets get some more opinions in here instead of just you and me.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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the board is so dry you have to worry if opponent is suddenly ready to go all in. Maybe they have Q3 or 73, but they easily have 33 or 77. Usually if 2p is good you would get a call from villain after your raise. It might be good, but it seems just as likely we're beat.
another problem with going all in with 2p in general, is unless it was 3bet PF, you usually are beat if you are going AI. The eternal 2p question to ask when going AI: What do we beat that villain realistically has? I'd expect most people to dump 73 in the sb, though some will complete it. Some might complete Q3 if it's suited. But everyone completes 33 or 77. So it's a tough spot...
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