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thizzSantaCruz
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09-22-2007, 09:54 PM
Post subject: flopped flush semi deep
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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No reads on villain at all, I just sat down. He raised the flop in our only previous hand, in which I 3-bet his UTG raise and I folded.
I want to get my stack in here right? Should I push this turn because I do not want another club falling?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
SB ($111)
BB ($34.95)
UTG ($74.10)
Hero ($72.65)
Button ($18.10)
Preflop: Hero is CO with  ,  . SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG raises to $1.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds.
Flop: ($3.50)  ,  ,  (2 players)
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $8, BB calls $6.
Turn: ($19.50)  (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $36, [color=#CC3333]Hero...........
*edited because the convertor is broken*
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djzcko
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 285
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shove.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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is 3bbs a standard opener or what the 50nl guys are doing when they dont have a premium UTG?
I agree this is just as likely to be a set as a bigger flus hwith say KQs
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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I don't see villain playing Kc-x playing this way. I think he would lead the turn. Likewise he can't see you playing Kc-x this way. It would make more sense to take the free card in position when villain's flop call suggests that he probably has a strong hand. So your turn bet looks like it has to be at least a set.
If he had a set he wouldn't c/r the turn.
I think its a fold.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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djzcko
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 285
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He has Ax Kc. You bet the turn weak so he thinks his pair of A and nut flush draw is goot. I have never run into another flopped flush SH in a raised pot after 100k hands. It's very rare so I'd shove.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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could actually be a fold
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
could actually be a fold
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...if you misclick the shove button.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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no, if you think about what hands do this
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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so you like folds with flopped flushes but pushes with ace high?
this is never, ever a fold. EVER. good god
there's a certain % of hands that just suck balls like set over set or flopped flush vs. flopped flush, but folding them is Ev- in the long run against most hands. tons of sets push monotone flops. i won a set over set on a monotone last night...
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by djzcko
I have never run into another flopped flush SH in a raised pot after 100k hands.
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Wow, i wouldn't have figured it would be THAT unlikely. I guess we should shove.
Edit: playing a big flush draw like this would actually be a good play.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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wouterpoker
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 42
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this is by far not a fold. i think you are ahead atleast 9 times out of 10 here. NH
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by djzcko
He has Ax Kc. You bet the turn weak so he thinks his pair of A and nut flush draw is goot. I have never run into another flopped flush SH in a raised pot after 100k hands. It's very rare so I'd shove.
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You run good, but yeah, all in baby.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
so you like folds with flopped flushes but pushes with ace high?
this is never, ever a fold. EVER. good god
there's a certain % of hands that just suck balls like set over set or flopped flush vs. flopped flush, but folding them is Ev- in the long run against most hands. tons of sets push monotone flops. i won a set over set on a monotone last night...
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exactly, sets DO push monotone flops, they don't wait to c/bomb the turn.
His range in my eyes is this:
KcQc/KcJc/QcJc/KcTc(discounted)/AxKc/AxQc
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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This is a shove and it isn't even close. AKc and a set plays it this way a good amount.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Let me clarify, I haven't said this is a fold/call/shove, I'm just exploring options. Obv if we're going to continue we shove but it's at least worth exploring his range.
I mean, to me the more I look at it it's a flopped flush or AxKc.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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I think it would take a smart 50NL player to call the flop intending to c/r the turn with Ax-Kc/Qc. Most players seem to go nuts with pair + FD on the flop, though given the depth of the stacks this would be a well played flush draw.
Here's a pokerstove analysis for the range bigspenda gave villain. I definitely agree that a set does not play this way, so i didn't include any.
Board: Ac 8c 3c 2d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.455% 50.45% 00.00% 222 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 49.545% 49.55% 00.00% 218 0.00 { KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, AdKc, AhKc, AsKc, AdQc, AhQc, AsQc }
---
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Here's another pokerstove, giving villain a tighter range of hands UTG.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
308 games 0.005 secs 61,600 games/sec
Board: Ac 8c 3c 2d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.078% 72.08% 00.00% 222 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 27.922% 27.92% 00.00% 86 0.00 { KcQc, AdKc, AhKc, AsKc, AdQc, AhQc, AsQc }
Obviously, the answer here is shove.
I also tried removing all but 1 combination of Ax-Kc/Qc and only then did Hero's equity suggest that continuing would be a mistake.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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yea and take out the AQ hands and you get this:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
308 games 0.005 secs 61,600 games/sec
Board: Ac 8c 3c 2d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.039% 36.04% 00.00% 111 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 63.961% 63.96% 00.00% 197 0.00 { KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, AdKc, AhKc, AsKc }
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jyms
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09-23-2007, 04:54 AM
Post subject: Re: flopped flush semi deep
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#19 (permalink)
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
No reads on villain at all, I just sat down. He raised the flop in our only previous hand, in which I 3-bet his UTG raised and I folded.
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What?
Quote:
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No reads on villain at all
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Stop doing this on FT. These are not good enough reasons to post a hand. FT allows datamining. Do not sit anywhere you don't know villains, where the money is coming from and who not to get it all in with.
As played you cannot put all your chips in the middle as a bluff catcher. you have no reads, he says he has the nut flush. Do you believe him? Why? Why not?
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Add the sets.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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conclusion; it's at least less of an autofelt than one might make it out to be.
I also learned something about playing big draws when deepstacked. 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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thizzSantaCruz
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09-23-2007, 05:12 AM
Post subject: Re: flopped flush semi deep
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#22 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
No reads on villain at all, I just sat down. He raised the flop in our only previous hand, in which I 3-bet his UTG raised and I folded.
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What?
Quote:
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No reads on villain at all
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Stop doing this on FT. These are not good enough reasons to post a hand. FT allows datamining. Do not sit anywhere you don't know villains, where the money is coming from and who not to get it all in with.
As played you cannot put all your chips in the middle as a bluff catcher. you have no reads, he says he has the nut flush. Do you believe him? Why? Why not? |
My wording is bad. Basically I am trying to say I know hes aggressive. He cold called my 3-bet from UTG pre and check raised over my c-bet on a 777 board.
My HUD was messed up, I am having computer problems with it and thats why I did not have any reads on it.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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yes, add sets. you'd be shocked how many donks will "slowplay" there set here. plus, some people with 2pair will even get all their chips in the middle here. Some people will assume that there is "no way" you flopped the flush.
stats would be nice in this situation, although I think in general they are overrated.
this is an instashove and its not even close, there is no argument, anyone folding this is crazy. we need to protect our hand here, and there is WAY more in opponents range that comes along for the ride than that beats us.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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this coming from the guy who folds sets 100b deep.....
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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also, i didn't mean to make this personal, I apologize if I did. I just don't get the posts you've made recently, advocating a push on a paired board with ace high, then reccomending a fold with a flopped flush. Sorry if I sound like a jerk
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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whooooooooooooops, got you and gametight confused somehow. My bad, and I don't take anything personally.
I really don't get why advocating a push with Ace high and advocating a fold with a flopped flush is that hard to get. I'm basically putting my opponents on a range and taking the best action in my mind against their range all the while taking my range into consideration as well
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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I guess I disagree with your ranges. you seem to pokerstove narrow ranges
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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what we really need to know is waht does a 3bbs opener UTG mean and what range is that?
Is this opps standard opener or what he does when he doesnt have a premium.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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as of like 6hours ago I noes the results so i won't be posting in the thread anymore
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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I think the difference between an unkowns 3bb standard raise and a 3.5 raise is indifferent at this point. If hes a real donk maybe hes hoping the smaller raise will get him more action, or maybe its a drawing hand trying to keep value down. I think the difference is real miniscule and without other information we can assign him a std utg raise for 6 max. Anyone like 22+ AT+ KQ+ and QJs+. I think that sounds about accurate.
I think the real question is what does his check-raise here mean? After a lot of thought I still think you have to felt it here. The flush is just too strong to lay down to an unkown. Now if he is proven to be a real solid player I think I have to consider folding.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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