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example of playing a draw OOP (no advice needed)

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Lukie

11-06-2006, 11:05 PM Post subject: example of playing a draw OOP (no advice needed)

#1 (permalink)

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This is a subject that people always seem to have trouble with. *In general*, you want to be playing your draws agressively. You should also be actively thinking about what you're trying to accomplish and represent while you are doing this. Overbet pushing a bare, 6 high flush draw over a nit's flop c/r is just spew, nothing more, nothing less.

Here is a cool hand, and I'll take you through my thought process (this is gold). Preflop seems standard enough. If this is an auto-muck preflop for you, with the caller inbetween, then you should work on your post-flop skills (unless of course UTG has a really tight range, which he does not).

When you call, given that you are closing the action pre-flop and opening the action post-flop, you should IMMEDIATELY be looking at the texture of the flop. No, scratch that, you should already be thinking about what kind of line you are going to take on different flops before you even make the call preflop. Anyway, back to the flop. Kind of an action flop, and one that you can hit quite hard in several different ways.

In this particular hand, I was considering c/c'ing (with the draw to the nuts, obv), c/r'ing, and doing the ol' b3bai.

I'd like to see what happens so I just check. IE if UTG bets, and MP raises, I can fold with only 3bb invested. If the preflop raiser bets, and the other guy folds, I might just c/c, and look to try to stack a hand like a set, aces up, worse straight (very unlikely), etc.

Anyway, in the actual hand, UTG makes a pretty strong stab at the pot which I think he will do with pretty much any moderately strong 1 pair hand, all hands 2p++, draws, sometimes air, and maybe even the occasional quads. MP just calls, which is a pretty big sign of having a very marginal hand on a 3-straight board with me still to act.

This is about as good of a situation as I could hope for, so I put in the power raise that sets up a standard sized type bet all-in on the turn (or if either pushes, which we'd obviously have to call). The original raiser is put in a REALLY shitty position if he doesn't have a monster and has to fold a huge part of his range here. We could easily have a set, JT, 89, etc-- and often will. We already know MP is weak here a good portion of the time, so once the raiser folds we will be confident that MP will fold as well.

For the results oriented, they both folded, and I happily scooped up the dead money in the pot.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($876.85)
Hero ($1426.50)
UTG ($934)
MP ($1000)
CO ($1480.75)
Button ($1050)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

, K

.
UTG raises to $36, MP calls $36, 3 folds, Hero calls $26.

Flop: ($113) J

, T

, 7

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $90, MP calls $90, Hero raises to $375

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IowaSkinsFan

11-06-2006, 11:21 PM

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Yeah, this seems relatively standard to me. Good advice.

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Lukie

11-06-2006, 11:27 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Yeah, this seems relatively standard to me. Good advice.

Probably, but after reading the horror that is the FTR poker forums, I think there are a lot of people that don't grasp it.. ie people advising others to bet/fold and/or check/fold the nut flush draw in a multiway raised pot, stuff like that. It makes me want to vomit.

*note* applies to 2p2 as well, ditto with talking to some players on AIM.

Robert

11-06-2006, 11:32 PM

#4 (permalink)

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I like it Lukie, but its not a thing I want to do without any reads tbh

gabe

11-07-2006, 12:09 AM

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actually, you do need advice if you think thats the best way to play it. calling is far better, ill let others elaborate.

elipsesjeff

11-07-2006, 12:47 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

actually, you do need advice if you think thats the best way to play it. calling is far better, ill let others elaborate.

He risked $275 to win $310 when he could risk $90 to win $1000 1/3 times?

well, I'm still thinking.

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Fnord

11-07-2006, 12:52 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

actually, you do need advice if you think thats the best way to play it. calling is far better, ill let others elaborate.

He risked $275 to win $310 when he could risk $90 to win $1000 1/3 times?

well, I'm still thinking.

$90 gets him the turn card. River card will probably cost us another bet.

We also need to consider how often we're getting paid and how often we're getting sucked out on.

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Lukie

11-07-2006, 01:37 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

actually, you do need advice if you think thats the best way to play it. calling is far better, ill let others elaborate.

Hmmm, I want you to elaborate. Both plays clearly seem +EV to me and both have merits. If I felt that UTG's near pot bet into a 3 way pot was always a huge hand, I'd agree that c/c'ing would be the better option. However, I think we have a huge amount of fold equity, especially given that hero has a solid image. Also, our draw is pretty obvious to all but the worst of hand-readers, and it will be near impossible to get paid off if the 9 hits, unless somebody else is unfortunate enough to have 8x. The A is also obvious, but at least we have the hope of winning a nice pot against something like AT.

Thus, I actually think the big c/r is the better play in this particular hand, despite the overused cliché that you should raise your non-nut draws and call with your nut ones (reasoning being that it sucks getting blown off a nut draw, whereas it doesn't matter much if it's not) that often doesn't apply to the situation.

I will be awaiting your explanation. It is entirely possible that my thinking is severely faulty (but I doubt it).

edit: I didn't even mention metagame reasons in my post. Let's just say that you become very easy to play against if you need to have a huge made hand to make this play. Those that can effectively balance their big made hand lines (read: set, usually) with big (or not so big) draws are SO MUCH harder to play against then those that nuke their sets and call with their draws and then try to bomb it when their 8-card straight draw or their 9 card flush draw hits. Hitting your gutshot (while missing your flush) is always nice, though.

gabe

11-07-2006, 03:01 AM

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just some points:
- i didnt say c/r was not +EV
-our draw isn't "pretty obvious to all but the worst of hand-readers"
-save the metagame stuff for the ultra mega combo draws or the pure bluffs. this isn't a super strong draw to get it allin with on the flop because whoever plays back at you will have 6 of your outs crushed. people usually refuse to put you on a set when you play them fast on boards with no flush draws anyway.

Ravageur

11-07-2006, 04:56 AM

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yeah i think gabe makes a good point that usually we can't count on having 14 good outs here when making this play (although I still like playing this hand strong). If you're raise is getting called, you're drawing pretty thin (at best one of your aces is dead, usually you're drawing to 7 outs because two pair/set are all that are giving you action).

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Genitruc

11-07-2006, 10:33 AM

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seems like raising is more effective w tight image vs good players.

vs mediocre players I'd be more inclined to call and expect to get paid off when I hit my 6-15 outer.

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

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example of playing a draw OOP (no advice needed)

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