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Irisheyes
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06-12-2008, 01:38 AM
Post subject: Easy Shove?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Villain is 20/13/2. Haven't played many hands with him, new site. He's on a few tables.
$2/$5 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($500.00)
UTG+1 ($737.00)
CO ($695.15)
BTN ($472.00)
Hero ($1752.90)
BB ($804.40)
[CO posted $5]
Pre-flop: ($12, 6 players) Hero is SB  
2 folds, CO checks, 1 fold, Hero raises to $25, BB calls $20, CO calls $20
Flop:    ($75, 3 players)
Hero bets $60, BB calls $60, 1 fold
Turn:  ($195, 2 players)
Hero bets $170, BB calls $170
River:  ($535, 2 players)
Have about PSB left
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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I want to shove but I'm not really sure what he could have that would call. I'm pretty tempted to checkraise
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deanglow
I want to shove but I'm not really sure what he could have that would call. I'm pretty tempted to checkraise
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what do you think hes firing here? he appears to be fairly passive.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Irish which site is this?
I'm also tempted to check here, but thinking about it he could have midpair to high pair with a diamond or something so id bet like 300.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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i like around 315. obv b/c 
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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What's he calling with?
A mediumish pair with a diamond is about the only non-draw non-luckbox hand I can put him on and I don't think he calls a push unless it's Jacks with a diamond.
I'd check to induce here.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Given that we have 3 of the kings, I think its a lot easier to assume that he has some kind of strong draw/weak hand here, more likely than a hand he's happy about.
I also c/c here the majority of the time, to induce bluffs.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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wow id rather c/f than c/c. Almost everything in his range has got some kind of showdown value so hes seldom going to bluff when you check. I think bet fold for like 2/5 pot could be good.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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wow id rather c/f than c/c.
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So sick.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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I think c/c > b/f > c/f
I can see merits for all these lines and think it's pretty close, but folding trips is damn hard and that's why you're playing a couple limits higher I'd rather have his af a bit higher for the c/c but I still think I make the call.
edit: also any timing tells might come in handy here.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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wow id rather c/f than c/c. Almost everything in his range has got some kind of showdown value so hes seldom going to bluff when you check. I think bet fold for like 2/5 pot could be good.
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Are there really better hands than ours that get to the river without raising an earlier street?
He'd have to be very passive for me to c/f here, and I'd have to have a solid read that he's THAT passive.
I also prefer c/c > b/f > c/f
I think betting small and c/c are very close.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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I don't like c/c because I don't think guys like this are ever aggressive enough to bluff the river with a missed draw if they're too weak to bluff on the flop with the semi-draw in the first place. Plus his stats don't make him look like the type.
I was going to say push but Griffey brings up a good point that it's pretty hard for him to have one of the kings. And nutsinho brings up a really good point. Now I kinda want to c/f, but I really doubt I would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Ok now that I think about this hand some more, and the type of opponent and preflop and such.
I think a big part of his range could actually be hands like 99-QQ with a diamond in it. I think in that case, I like a half-pot bet here. I think because we have two of the kings, it's unlikely he has a hand that will call a shove other than like KxQd or something.
edit: I would only shove if I had history with villain and he perceived me as bluffy, in which cause a shove would look like Adx a lot and he might call me down light.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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easiest jam ever
love,
sauce
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
easiest jam ever
love,
sauce
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ofcourse it's an EASY jam!
The question is what's the best line, and based on what villain's range is in this spot.. I don't think jam is the best unless history, and image is a bigger factor. But it doesn't sound like it.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I'm supprised at the number of 'bet 1/2 to 2/3' type replies. I think if I'm betting than shoving is the only option.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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I'd check to him. Pretty tough for him to have anything calling and he has Ad here quite a bit (something like AdJx).
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I'm supprised at the number of 'bet 1/2 to 2/3' type replies. I think if I'm betting than shoving is the only option.
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his calling hands are mostly mid pairs with a diamond in them. this is why half pot or less is sweet...unless he likes to make big calls.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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also, if he does have the flush, raising it at any point in this hand is suboptimal given stack sizes, relative positions, and hero's hand reading ability. This sums up why i think b/f small > c/f > c/c.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I'm supprised at the number of 'bet 1/2 to 2/3' type replies. I think if I'm betting than shoving is the only option.
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his calling hands are mostly mid pairs with a diamond in them. this is why half pot or less is sweet...unless he likes to make big calls. |
I think that I don't get called often by these hands even if I bet small because I look so much like Kx. My best chance of getting a bet called is if he puts me on a missed Ad and shoving represents this better than betting small.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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this is true, and what i was thinking when i threw in 'unless he likes to make big calls'. perhaps this logic just holds vs most thinking opponents, but I was thinking a smaller bet might work well vs a bunch of the crowd at 2/5, while i agree with sauce that this is 'easy shove' at his stakes.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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OK at this point I think $200/fold > c/c = c/f. I bet if I had like 200 hands more with him I could make a much more clear cut decision. Playing readless sucks.
Anyways I checked and he checked back 22.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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omg fuck me to tears
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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lol
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
OK at this point I think $200/fold > c/c = c/f. I bet if I had like 200 hands more with him I could make a much more clear cut decision. Playing readless sucks.
Anyways I checked and he checked back 22.
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I think readless is the key factor here.
I completely agree with you, Irish, that IF you had reads and history that a shove would for sure be the best play.
But as played, against an unknown and no history, villain has such a wide range and has no reads on you, so the most likely bet to get called is 1/2-2/3 pot kind of bet I'd imagine.
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