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Galapogos
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06-07-2008, 02:57 AM
Post subject: Dumb-ish spot
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Just a dumb checkup, on this river, do you like a flat call hoping the guy behind me, tsikrima, would be more tempted to call in case he has anything worthwhile? Or do you think I'm showing enough strength calling this guy's overbet shove that a push isn't going to change tsikrima's mind either way?
Zero reads on everyone. Sat down like 3 hands ago.
$0.50/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG casinoestori ($21.80)
CO Hero ($98.50)
BTN tsikrima ($86.85)
SB rudiger1963 ($47.95)
BB RafikA5 ($32.20)
Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is CO :3h :ah
1 fold, Hero bets $3, tsikrima calls $3, rudiger1963 calls $2.50, RafikA5 calls $2
Flop: :6h :qh :ad ($12, 4 players)
rudiger1963 checks, RafikA5 checks, Hero checks, tsikrima checks
Turn: :7s ($12, 4 players)
rudiger1963 checks, RafikA5 bets $3, Hero calls $3, tsikrima calls $3, rudiger1963 calls $3
River: :th ($24, 4 players)
rudiger1963 goes all-in $41.95, 1 fold, Hero...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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AlphaKennyBody
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 108
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I don't think it matters here really. Whether you call or shove, he's either gonna get the money in or gtfo. A call would look weaker I suppose, but villain behind you has already made up his mind about the hand when the other guy overbet shoves imo.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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bet the flop
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
bet the flop
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Yeah checking here 4-way with just a FD is okay, but you have TP + FD. Why didn't you bet?
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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fold preflop
bet flop
fold river
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
fold preflop
bet flop
fold river
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pre is fine.
folding the river is a little too weak considering we have the nuts.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Preflop is not bad at all as you are in the CO! Bet the flop to build the pot with such a strong hand. Umm folding the river is retarded.
I'd probably just shove the river to maximize the money you get from the hands that would call and not raise but would still call your shove if that makes sense.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
fold preflop
bet flop
fold river
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pre is fine.
folding the river is a little too weak considering we have the nuts. |
pf is pretty standard. also i am thinking just call. a lower flush may consider a fold to a shove, and we also bring in 2p's sometimes with a call.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Juked07
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 83
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i wonder how he arrived at deciding that we should bet flop without noticing we have the nut fd. or if he did notice the fd, how did he fail to see that we hit?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
bet the flop
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Yeah checking here 4-way with just a FD is okay, but you have TP + FD. Why didn't you bet? |
Why does everyone want to bet the flop? We're 4-way with almost the worst ace. There's a very good chance there's at least an ace out there that's ahead of us. Is that too weak tight of me? If it is, please explain why.
And whoever said fold preflop, you crazy.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
bet the flop
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Yeah checking here 4-way with just a FD is okay, but you have TP + FD. Why didn't you bet? |
Why does everyone want to bet the flop? We're 4-way with almost the worst ace. There's a very good chance there's at least an ace out there that's ahead of us. Is that too weak tight of me? If it is, please explain why. |
Let's say for example someone has AT. We are ahead of him!
Board: 6h Qh Ad
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.568% 43.11% 07.46% 3414 591.00 { Ah3h }
Hand 1: 49.432% 41.97% 07.46% 3324 591.00 { ATs, ATo }
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Bet the flop to build a pot and protect your hand against weak draws from the field.
On the river I would just call.
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pankfish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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Just call and hope someone looks you up with a J high flush or something. I don't expect you to get more money in the pot than is already there though.
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<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
bet the flop
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Yeah checking here 4-way with just a FD is okay, but you have TP + FD. Why didn't you bet? |
Why does everyone want to bet the flop? We're 4-way with almost the worst ace. There's a very good chance there's at least an ace out there that's ahead of us. Is that too weak tight of me? If it is, please explain why. |
i mean we basically flopped the nuts. im pretty happy to get it in on this flop.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Bet the flop to build a pot and protect your hand against weak draws from the field.
On the river I would just call.
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Everyone but the guy behind me is a half stack, and even he only has 86bb. So I don't see why there's a need to build the pot. And the strongest draw out there is a 3 outter, or a lower flush draw which I have no problem with.
I'm not totally disagreeing with everyone on the flop bet. I do bet this flop a lot and I'm aware I'm ahead of AT, slightly. But that's playing the variance card unecessarily. Judging by their stacks I'm not going to have to worry about meta as I'm 95% sure they're just casual players looking to fuck around. If I wait until the turn to make a bet if it's checked to me again I maintain the lead in the hand so the river will be super easy to play. And if someone decides to lead I think it'll be fairly easy to determine where I'm at in the hand anyway.
Maybe I'm talking out of my ass. But this struck me as a very +ev way to play the hand as well, and definitely a lower variance approach. Not saying I always choose the lower variance approach, but why not take it here?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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when you are ahead you wanna get money in the pot idk why you wouldnt. you could also get value from a queen, or lower flush draw, or gutshot, or just not let a couple hands like 77,88 see another card for free.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
when you are ahead you wanna get money in the pot idk why you wouldnt. you could also get value from a queen, or lower flush draw, or gutshot, or just not let a couple hands like 77,88 see another card for free.
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A queen calling in a 4-way A high FD pot would be nice, but I have no idea how bad these guys are yet. I'm not worried about 77 two outtering me. A flush will pay me off when we hit. Also can't be sure I'm getting value from a gut shot, have no idea what these guys chase at this point.
And I already said why, why take the high variance route when I could take a lower one. And is betting the flop more +ev? If so, how?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
A queen calling in a 4-way A high FD pot would be nice, but I have no idea how bad these guys are yet.
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well none of them are full stacks so its certainly possible someone calls you with like KQ, QJ kinda of stuff. you have to allow people to make mistakes.
Quote:
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I'm not worried about 77 two outtering me.
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ok well lets say all the other guys have hands like 77 that arent putting anymore money in unless they hit why not just take their equity in the pot away from them. yeah its not a huge reason but its definitely a positive for betting that you are blowing off.
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A flush will pay me off when we hit.
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yeah no shit hes paying you off if it hits either way, the whole point is it misses 66% of the time why do you not wanna get value out of him all of those times??
Quote:
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Also can't be sure I'm getting value from a gut shot, have no idea what these guys chase at this point.
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once again they seem like bad players and you have to let them make mistakes. why let them see the turn for free with a gutshot. if they fold it no big deal then you stoled their equity they had in the pot and didnt let them hit it.
Quote:
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And I already said why, why take the high variance route when I could take a lower one. And is betting the flop more +ev? If so, how?
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because betting is wayyyyyyyy better.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
And I already said why, why take the high variance route when I could take a lower one. And is betting the flop more +ev? If so, how?
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because betting is wayyyyyyyy better. |
You've said this numerous times but have yet to explain why. Yeah I might get value from queens and I might get value from gutshots. But what about all the times I'm beat here and end up getting pushed on? Yeah I have good equity but the moneys still going in with me behind. What about the times I'm in a gross spot on the turn/river? Does it work out so that way is a lot more +ev than the way I played it?
Sorry if I'm being thick headed. But I'm not convinced yet and want to hear why.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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ok this is tilting me. i just explained why. i dont even know what else to say.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
A queen calling in a 4-way A high FD pot would be nice, but I have no idea how bad these guys are yet.
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well none of them are full stacks so its certainly possible someone calls you with like KQ, QJ kinda of stuff. you have to allow people to make mistakes.
Quote:
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I'm not worried about 77 two outtering me.
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ok well lets say all the other guys have hands like 77 that arent putting anymore money in unless they hit why not just take their equity in the pot away from them. yeah its not a huge reason but its definitely a positive for betting that you are blowing off.
Quote:
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A flush will pay me off when we hit.
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yeah no shit hes paying you off if it hits either way, the whole point is it misses 66% of the time why do you not wanna get value out of him all of those times??
Quote:
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Also can't be sure I'm getting value from a gut shot, have no idea what these guys chase at this point.
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once again they seem like bad players and you have to let them make mistakes. why let them see the turn for free with a gutshot. if they fold it no big deal then you stoled their equity they had in the pot and didn't let them hit it. |
This pretty much sums it up. You will win money if they fold or if they call the flop but fold the turn. The way you are playing it the only way you are going to make money is by coolering someone. It's not about low or high varience, it's about the approach that will make the most money. Put them to tough decisions, make them want to call you down light cause they think omg he could be bluffing or omg i think he has a fd i have 77 I callz. People in general are terrible at poker and they will call you with worse, you just have to give them the opportunity 2. You are much better at poker than your opponents so thinking about what you would do in their shoes is not very helpful in getting value from them.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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galapagos, you have a tremendous amount of equity vs everything. you get value from so many more things than a better ace, which btw you are still favored against. our hand loses a lot of value by not betting this flop imo. in general, im looking to get it in every time i flop a pair +FD, especially TP+FD.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Because you don't want to give up a 12bb pot + crying call to a pocket pair or middle pair or something you gave a free card to.
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