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A draw and a set

  
 
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Irisheyes
Old 08-05-2009, 06:32 PM     Post subject: A draw and a set #1 (permalink)  
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Sorry for pulling a bit of a bsphan on you guys as you all know I'm running/playing really bad.

Have 350 hands with villain. He's generally pretty loose and aggressive but no specific reads.

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($101.05)
CO ($41.35)
BTN ($137.90)
SB ($111.09)
BB ($167.62)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($8.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $7, BTN raises to $21, $14 to Hero ($90.55)?


Villain seems decent. 33/23/3 or so. Cbets the flop 80% and doesn't fire the turn that often but then again it may be a sample size thing. Only 16 instances for the turn stat.

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($112.70)
CO ($98.15)
Hero (BTN) ($109.40)
SB ($206.60)
BB ($30.00)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is BTN
UTG raises to $3.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50, SB calls $3, 1 fold

Flop: ($11.50, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $11.50, Hero calls $11.50, SB folds

Turn: ($34.50, 2 players)
UTG bets $30, Hero calls $30

River: ($94.50, 2 players)
UTG goes all-in $67.70, Hero folds

Final Pot: $162.20

UTG wins $159.20 ( won +$46.50 )
Hero lost -$45
SB lost -$3.50
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griffey24
Old 08-05-2009, 07:34 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1-
without reads that villain is a nit, I'm just 3betting and getting this in.

Hand 2-
Wow raise flop please, to 30. This isn't a board I wanna be playing slowly. As played, I jam turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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bspahn
Old 08-05-2009, 07:38 PM #3 (permalink)  
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its bspahn, get it right! lol

hand 1 i think call and fold turn unimproved. also beware hitting Q/K and facing a lot of action. i think you can often invest $14 here to get someone's stack and you have 20% to hit flush on turn when you call here. getting it in on this flop i think you're behind most of the time.

hand 2 I dont think K10 is in his range that often on the flop, i raise this flop and try to stack AK/AQ/AJ/QJ type hands, as played I think you can get it in on turn since only 9T improved.
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dev
Old 08-05-2009, 08:10 PM #4 (permalink)  
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hand 1 I shove (maybe fold if image sucks or whatever). He most likely folds the nut flush draw. Calling has tough reverse implied odds.

hand 2 yeah raise flop. We're not expecting him to bet air on the turn so what to we get from calling that we don't get from raising? Also, yeah bad flop for a slow play. Even if he is second bested there's too many action killers that could show up.
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griffey24
Old 08-05-2009, 08:33 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dev
He most likely folds the nut flush draw.
I really doubt anyone will ever fold the nut flush draw here, especially after raising the flop. Nor do I think they should be, since worse draws will also be getting it in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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Da GOAT
Old 08-05-2009, 08:55 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I flat the KQs hand, we are utg and he still raises rather than floats, also we dont cb this board a ton anyway so we usually have a decent hand anyway

Gotta raise flop or at least turn in hand 2
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-05-2009, 09:27 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: I think this is a call or fold not even close. C/f turn if call. I have a feeling Renton is going to come in and say fold... maybe im just a spewtard but i normally will call here.

Hand 2: Raise flop for real. River fold seems good as played.
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Irisheyes
Old 08-05-2009, 09:47 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Ok we'll chalk the second one up to weak tight tilt. Thanks for all comments so far. Any more opinions on the first hand?
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Irisheyes
Old 08-05-2009, 09:48 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I have a feeling Renton is going to come in and say fold...
hahaaha I was thinking the same thing as I posted!
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ATOTHEC101
Old 08-05-2009, 09:52 PM #10 (permalink)  
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flat flop raise in 1, though folding is ok to.

flatting flop in hand 2 is fine in my opinion, but def def jam turn, as played, meh guess I fold.
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griffey24
Old 08-05-2009, 09:57 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hand 1: I think this is a call or fold not even close.
I think this is entirely villain dependent. I know there are some regs I play against that compulsively raise coordinated flops like this with position, knowing that we can hardly ever 3-bet and will have a hard time continuing past the turn.

Seems to me we have a pretty narrow 3betting range on coordinated boards, if we're not 3betting these type of hands?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-05-2009, 10:41 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hand 1: I think this is a call or fold not even close.
I think this is entirely villain dependent. I know there are some regs I play against that compulsively raise coordinated flops like this with position, knowing that we can hardly ever 3-bet and will have a hard time continuing past the turn.

Seems to me we have a pretty narrow 3betting range on coordinated boards, if we're not 3betting these type of hands?
I'm not sure this is a big deal.

I think given the fact we raised UTG 5 handed it seems like the optimal threebet range for an opponent would be 66/55/44/64/54/65/78. I think raising any bluffs here is a pretty large mistake against pretty much anyone because people won't fold 77-AA here. Not to mention we have 66-44 in our range, and possibly 87-54s. It's not a spot where I'd expect we would be exploited by bluffs even if opp is loose aggro.

Sure its opponent dependent but given the reads loose and aggressive its still safe to say threebetting this flop is giving away money.
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Irisheyes
Old 08-05-2009, 11:06 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hand 1: I think this is a call or fold not even close.
I think this is entirely villain dependent. I know there are some regs I play against that compulsively raise coordinated flops like this with position, knowing that we can hardly ever 3-bet and will have a hard time continuing past the turn.

Seems to me we have a pretty narrow 3betting range on coordinated boards, if we're not 3betting these type of hands?
I'm not sure this is a big deal.
I think raising any bluffs here is a pretty large mistake against pretty much anyone because people won't fold 77-AA here.
You mean it's a mistake for the BTN to raise any bluffs?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-05-2009, 11:56 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hand 1: I think this is a call or fold not even close.
I think this is entirely villain dependent. I know there are some regs I play against that compulsively raise coordinated flops like this with position, knowing that we can hardly ever 3-bet and will have a hard time continuing past the turn.

Seems to me we have a pretty narrow 3betting range on coordinated boards, if we're not 3betting these type of hands?
I'm not sure this is a big deal.
I think raising any bluffs here is a pretty large mistake against pretty much anyone because people won't fold 77-AA here.
You mean it's a mistake for the BTN to raise any bluffs?
Yeah
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griffey24
Old 08-06-2009, 12:13 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 I'm not sure I agree that this is a bad bluffing board. It's a board, as we've shown here, where a huge portion of UTG's non-nuttish range will flat OOP. We can play in position and can hit a lot of different turn cards that will be hard for hero to continue (7,3,8, spade, even overcards). Not to mention the pressure of us already having two pair or a set, when its unlikely hero will flat the flop OOP with hands stronger than one pair.

Assuming UTG is capable of folding made hands, I think these boards are actually good for bluff raising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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Irisheyes
Old 08-06-2009, 12:24 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Yeah I was thinking what giff said. The BTN has a decently wide value raising/get-it-in range on this flop. This means that it's hard for us to re-bluff him with our air when he raises and that's a big deal because even though we have a lot of get-it-in hands in our cbetting range, it is still dominated by air unless we just c/f the flop a lot.
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Irisheyes
Old 08-06-2009, 12:30 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Also I don't get why you said people never fold 77-AA when they get raised on a flop like this. Standard advice for a long time when spots like this got posted was of the slightly ahead, way behind variety.
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Marshall28
Old 08-06-2009, 12:45 AM #18 (permalink)  
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I actually think I have something to add that hasn't been said.

You shouldn't be c-betting this board unless you are planning to 3bet and get it in. SOOOOO, I would say that if you are expecting villain to turn random stuff not willing to get it in but also not wanting to float into a bluff by raising you, then you should for sure stick it in since he will be folding to your 3bet more often.

I much prefer a checkraise in this spot since it's one where villain will c-bet his entire range when checked to, and also will likely play pretty straightforward to it since he won't know what it means.

I just hate 3betting the flop for reasons ISF noted unless we are expecting him to fold to our 3bet a decent % of the time, and if 2 bets are going to be going into the pot on the flop anyways (i.e. we bet he raises we call), I'd much rather have the initiative on the turn.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:57 AM #19 (permalink)  
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it's bspahn which is Polish for Mr. BS

it's ok for us to always flat hand 1 no matter what kind of hand we hold
level 1 thinkers will raise sets/nfds/combodraws
so we should always continue cautiously

I wouldn't even mind folding a hand like 99 against people who do this with a strong range... I don't think most people will do this, but I think our equity is just shit
although some people spew and raise oesd/small flush draws here and I'll have to call flop raise and proceed cautiously
but then if villain knows this and might raise air repping a large draw/set
so against me this is a good board to bluff with air because I'll be giving you a lot of credit

it's probably a bad board to raise with a draw, and a better board to play a draw sneaky and flat
c/r as pfr is a sick line here though because it's the kind of flop we'd be giving up on with whiffed AK/KQ
but I guess we have to get it in if he 3bs our c/r
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Renton
Old 08-09-2009, 06:41 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 I think to say that you shouldn't bet the flop if you aren't continuing to a raise is pretty wrong. This is a board texture that the vast majority of his continuing hands will call, not raise.

I think I would only call the flop raise if I believed i could continue on a K/Q turn, otherwise I would just fold. I think its pretty damn close though.
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minSim
Old 08-10-2009, 07:36 AM #21 (permalink)  
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I'd b/c hand 1.

I've never understand the bare argument you shouldn't bet a marginal hand if you don't want to continue to a raise (or something about that).
It's only half the story, if that raise is gonna come only 1% of the time, who cares....but if it's coming like 25% of the time it's important.

In this hand, our cbetting range is strong and I think villains raising range is pretty much 2P+. That's not a big consideration, knowing the vast mojarity of the time we're getting a fold or a call and we can barrel.

OK, this time hero get's raised. It's gonna happen every once in a while, so be it. Call or fold on pot and implied odds imo, and those implied odds aren't that great.
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dsaxton
Old 08-10-2009, 08:28 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Are we actually seriously discussing a flop fold in hand 1? I would shove this without much thought against an aggressive player, but I will grant that calling could be better.

I think calling the flop in hand 1 is alright since you would never raise this flop without having a strong hand. I would call and shove this turn after he bets.
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