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Does anyone fold KK in these spots?

  
 
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Silly String
Old 11-07-2007, 01:09 PM     Post subject: Does anyone fold KK in these spots? #1 (permalink)  
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Shorty doesn't matter much, but the cold caller was 43/10. Does anyone fold this? How would you maximize EV on flop here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($61.35)
UTG ($120.45)
MP ($85.45)
Hero ($137)
Button ($151.30)
SB ($135.30)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($12.50) Q, J, T (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, Button calls $10, BB raises to $30, Hero raises to $133, Button raises to $147.3, BB calls $27.35 (All-In).

Turn: ($184.55) 3 (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($184.55) 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $350.15



Again I don't care about shorty, but is this push over AA often enough to make this a fold. The 5 bettor is 25/19, but I have not seen him 3bet light in the 50+ hands at the table. How would others play this preflop?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($118.30)
MP ($12.65)
CO ($117.30)
Hero ($101.45)
SB ($252.10)
BB ($116)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K.
UTG raises to $3, MP raises to $12.65 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero raises to $25, 2 folds, UTG raises to $118.3, Hero calls $76.45 (All-In).

Flop: ($39.45) 6, 3, 8 (3 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($39.45) 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($39.45) 2 (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $233.90
Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
 
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bode
Old 11-07-2007, 01:20 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 i really dont know on hand 1, id like to hear others answers.

hand 2 is fine imo. UTG may think youre trying to isolate shorty with something more marginal (TT/AQ type hands). He shows up with AK plenty to make this a call.
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Ash256
Old 11-07-2007, 01:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I think both are fine.
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Silly String
Old 11-07-2007, 01:53 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I did some equity evaluations for hand #1, and using a fairly tight range for the cold caller(BU), I still came up with an equity advantage. I was a little surprised given all the interest in the pot that I might have 35-40% equity in the pot.
Still yet, does anybody fold given AK & 2 pair are all possibilities w/ a set possible but less likely?
I don't mean to waste anyone's time with Hand #2, but it just seems my hand is face up and he still pushed over with a 5bet. That is a concern from a 25/19 TAG, yes?
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Ash256
Old 11-07-2007, 02:36 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 I'm pretty sure button raises flop with a set or 2pr.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-07-2007, 02:43 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: bleh with the cold caller in their i think your equity is good, if it was just you and bb i'd probably fold to the raise, but idk, we have a backdoor fd, straight draw, set draw, and counterfitting two pair draw, its hard to fold.

Hand 2: cool
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minSim
Old 11-07-2007, 03:08 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I wouldn't foldem
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Da GOAT
Old 11-07-2007, 03:34 PM #8 (permalink)  
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eh fine

am i missing something, why do we care about the button player. he just called then we acted before him when he called!!!
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jackvance
Old 11-07-2007, 05:31 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 I feel a lot better about hand 2 than hand 1. Hand 2 he will often be trying to scare you out of the pot rather than having AA imo. Hand 1 however I think button has you beat.. but I don't think I can find a fold since we're on an OESD aswell.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-07-2007, 06:00 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 The c/raiser has $30 behind, and you're almost always beating the button, I think shove is the only way to go.
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Silly String
Old 11-08-2007, 01:37 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the comments. I didn't mean for this to be remedial, but after running into a number of KK vs. better hands I started thinking some people might be able to get away. I guess it is just a bad run messing with my head.
I'm sure you can tell from the tone of my posts, but for the results oriented:
In hand 1 BU had QJ and he held up, BB had J9o
In hand 2 UTG had AA.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-08-2007, 01:58 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1). At 50NL there are definitely people who are calling the money in with marginal pot odds facing a 3bet AI on this flop with any 8 out draw so shoving seems fine in this spot.

Hand 2). I will 4bet bluff on occasion, as it allows me to pick off some light 3bets as well as happily get the money in with a fairly wide range preflop for 100BB.
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Silly String
Old 11-12-2007, 06:57 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the input guys. For those who care about the results:
In hand #1, BU had QJo and BB had J9o. QJ held.
In hand #2, Orig. raiser(UTG) obviously had AA.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-12-2007, 07:00 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 thats good cause we are pretty much flipping with QJ.
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Silly String
Old 11-12-2007, 07:05 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I was real happy to not see an AK flipped up here by either customer.
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andy-akb
Old 11-12-2007, 07:25 PM #16 (permalink)  
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1) I dont think we are ever really getting called by worse here if we 3bet or getting better to fold. I just call the raise and go from there, getting it in on a diamond or a straight card.

2) Standard call. I may 4bet larger here or just call the shove, really depends on how I view my opponent. However, Im not folding KK PF to a 25/19, let alone for 100bb
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Rondavu
Old 11-12-2007, 07:44 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I would fold the first hand on the turn a lot, because I like $$. You can't fold to the flop check raise, because it assumes a larger range you're ahead of enough times vs odds to call. You call because you may be ahead, and the turn may help you if you are not, then you fold to a large lead turn bet out of respect for opponents image.
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Silly String
Old 11-12-2007, 07:55 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Anyone else getting it in on a turn card here?

I purposefully pushed the flop for fear of the FD out turning me in an inflated pot. The button's actions sure look like a diamond draw or a nut hand to me, especially given his stats.
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Aces
Old 11-12-2007, 09:26 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 - that's a scary flop for KK. For some reason I feel like I should fold this.

Hand 2 - I don't know if I could fold but if I could this might be the spot vs. a 5bet PF AI
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