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Do you like to push with JJ

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Bo G

08-09-2005, 03:22 PM Post subject: Do you like to push with JJ

#1 (permalink)

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Bo G is an unknown quantity at this point

***** Hand History for Game 2504545477 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, August 09, 08:07:34 EDT 2005
Table Table 54850 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: MisterRC ( $21.15 )
Seat 2: steggen75 ( $25.65 )
Seat 3: algadban ( $13.30 )
Seat 4: AlanKing111 ( $21.50 )
Seat 5: bgilic ( $24.65 )
Seat 6: Flameblade ( $14.35 )
>You have options at Table 55839 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
algadban posts small blind [$0.10].
AlanKing111 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to bgilic [ Jc Jd ]
bgilic raises [$1].
>You have options at Table 55839 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 55839 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 54965 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
Flameblade folds.
>You have options at Table 54965 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
steggen75 folds.
>You have options at Table 55839 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
algadban raises [$2.90].
AlanKing111 calls [$2.75].
>You have options at Table 55839 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 54965 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
bgilic is all-In.
>You have options at Table 54965 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
algadban is all-In.
AlanKing111 is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 7s, As ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
>You have options at Table 54965 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
algadban shows [ Kd, Qd ] a pair of queens.
AlanKing111 shows [ Ah, 8h ] a flush, ace high.
bgilic shows [ Jc, Jd ] a pair of jacks.
>You have options at Table 55839 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
bgilic wins $3.15 from side pot #2 with a pair of jacks.
AlanKing111 wins $16.35 from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high.
AlanKing111 wins $37.95 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

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Les_Worm

08-09-2005, 03:23 PM

#2 (permalink)

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No, call the reraise and check/fold the flop.

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You

Bo G

08-09-2005, 03:28 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Thanks. Another lesson in the vault.

dalecooper

08-09-2005, 03:44 PM

#4 (permalink)

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I'd only push jacks against one opponent when I had a very specific read on him. Some players are loose/aggressive enough that you can push jacks over their re-raise every time and feel confident that you're the favorite most of the time. But in this situation I agree with Les completely.

Les_Worm

08-09-2005, 04:10 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Even against 1 opponent I don't push Jacks unless I have a great read that they have an underpair. Being just a favorite isn't enough. I don't want to get all in w/ a coin flip in a cash game, but I'll take a 4-1 advantage any day of the week. There are better spots to get money in.

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You

dalecooper

08-09-2005, 05:28 PM

#6 (permalink)

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I don't quite get that logic. If you knew for sure your opponent had overcards, the optimal move is to get as much money in the pot as possible, even though you're only a slight favorite. That is, assuming your bankroll and psyche can absorb the blow easily if you lose. More to the point, against the type of opponent I'm talking about - a true LAgg - they might hold anything from a suited ace, to AT/AJ, to any pocket pair. Because their range of hands for getting so aggressive is large, you're a heavy favorite against their average hand. Sometimes you'll flip coins and very rarely you'll be dominated, but usually against this type of player I like my chances a whole lot with jacks. Plus, even though they are majorly loose, they're not ALWAYS going to call - so you gain a slight edge in fold equity, as well.

To take it from another angle, let's assume that they are going to be maximally aggressive every time they have what they consider a good hand, and you are going to fold your jacks and wait for better spots any time they show this much aggression. If they are pushing with AK/AQ/AJ/TT/99/88 (a range of solid hands which are all slight to heavy dogs vs. your jacks) and you are folding jacks each time, you are donating them a lot of free chips in situations where you would be right to go all in. Only a small percentage of the time against this opponent will you have to worry about an overpair.

I'm not saying you have to make these calls/pushes, but I am saying that if you never do, you should probably find another table. In fact, 6 max may not be for you at all. Aggression runs way too high to play scared. For my part, I'm not giving up on a good table just because some maniac likes to go all in a lot.

Les_Worm

08-09-2005, 05:47 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

let's assume that they are going to be maximally aggressive every time they have what they consider a good hand, and you are going to fold your jacks and wait for better spots any time they show this much aggression.

I didn't say I was folding Jacks, I said I am not pushing with them. There are much better spots to get all your money in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

If they are pushing with AK/AQ/AJ/TT/99/88 (a range of solid hands which are all slight to heavy dogs vs. your jacks) and you are folding jacks each time, you are donating them a lot of free chips in situations where you would be right to go all in.

I agree with you here and I think there are times to call. But they didn't push in this hand. They re-raised and he pushed. Again, even against one opponent if I raise and he reraises, I am calling, not pushing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

In fact, 6 max may not be for you at all. Aggression runs way too high to play scared.

All I play is 6max and I do well at it. Since when is not pushing all in to a reraise playing scared? All I am saying is that calling with Jacks in a spot like that has been a play that works well for me.

I think we are talking about different things. I am taking about getting reraised when you hold Jacks and your post seems to talk about calling an all in with Jacks.

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You

dalecooper

08-09-2005, 06:30 PM

#8 (permalink)

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I'm talking about both, actually. But here's the main difference in my mind: if you get re-raised and just call with your jacks, you have no idea where you really stand, for one, and could get scared off the best hand by a troublesome flop. And two, you may be missing out on the primary rule of poker, which is that getting all your money in with the best hand is the ultimate goal.

Let's say in this situation that AlanKing isn't playing the hand, and algadban has just re-raised from $1 to $3. You have two options: push (or raise $10, since that's all albadgan has); or flat call. We're assuming that we do have a read on albadgan that he's loose/aggressive and likely to re-raise with a mediocre hand (which is exactly what happened in this case).

Now let's take a look at a few carefully chosen flops that might come down:

flop 1 - Ts 6h 3c

Rainbow board, all undercards; looks pretty good. You're first to act. Are you going to bet? If he raises all in, are you going to call? I'd say a big bet and calling the all in would be appropriate and likely.

flop 2 - Ac Ts 9c

This is a troubling board. You'd have second pair but the ace is very likely to have hit the re-raiser. You'd probably check/fold, or bet weak/fold - even though the ace actually missed his hand.

flop 3 - Qc Ts 5h

This is the kind of board that the jacks would probably call his all in on, because the queen is the least threatening overcard that could have come out. You'd lose of course but that's how it goes.

flop 4 - Ts Td 9s

If you bet and he raises all in, are you comfortable calling that? A lot of players would fold, even though their hand is best and moreover is LIKELY to be best. They're too afraid of the tens and the flush/straight draws as well.

flop 5 - As Ts 6s

Oh the horror. Hero folds to the raise every time and villain shows his hand, laughing maniacally.

I guess the point I'm slowly getting around to is this. A pair of jacks is not the kind of hand you really want to take a flop and judge with. There are too many scary possibilities - starting with three overcards that could come out. And since this player is short-stacked and LAgg, we know it's very likely he will go all in on the flop no matter what we do, and no matter how much the board has helped or hurt us.

So I have to reiterate, I think your best move is push while you have him on a range of hands that you are favored against, and not let a troublesome flop talk you out of it. The only other move I like here is flat call and then push on most flops, which is basically the same, but it lets him have a look at a board that may not help him (and therefore increase your fold equity somewhat). And of course if the board is As Ks Qs you can comfortably fold and save yourself $10, too.

Bear in mind that he doesn't have enough money to pay you off if you play "no set, no bet." Or if you're counting on undercards - because a large percentage of the time there will be at least one overcard on the flop, which is going to hurt your aggression. Only two of the three overcards could possibly help him, but no matter - you'll never really know which ones do and which ones don't, so most of the time if an overcard flops, you're going to check/fold your jacks, which were still the best hand 33% of the time or more.

Basically what I'm advocating is this: against a LAgg player in a short-handed game, play jacks like you'd play kings or aces. If he re-raises, you should feel very comfortable re-raising him back, probably pushing all in. The hand is strong against his range of hands, and most of the time you're not going to like whatever flops... why shoot yourself in the foot that way? Get your money in early. Now in this case, with no particular read on the one player and another guy calling, no way I'd push. Easy flat call and check/fold the flop.

Les_Worm

08-09-2005, 07:00 PM

#9 (permalink)

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I understand what you are saying but I just don't agree. I do think pushing with your jacks is fine when your opponenet is shortstacked but with big stacks I think its a bad play. Either way, I respect the way you'd play it but I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You

dalecooper

08-09-2005, 07:19 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Fair enough. Of course, you're talking to a guy who re-raised all-in with pocket fours against a friend pre-flop, in a cash game (the guy was crazy-loose and called me... CALLED me... with Q3o). So my standards of pre-flop aggression, and the kind of edges I'm willing to exploit, are radically different from most players.

Bo G

08-09-2005, 07:26 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Please tell me he didn't hit a Q.

Les_Worm

08-09-2005, 07:43 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Dale, are you aggressive post flop as well? I play a little more conservative preflop but am very aggressive post flop. I think you may be the opposite. I bet if we played heads up it would be a very short match. You seem very willing to get it all in preflop and I am the same way post flop.

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You

dalecooper

08-09-2005, 07:48 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Please tell me he didn't hit a Q

Worse than that. After he called, my friend Kevin yelped "And I just folded Q3! You're so screwed!" Of course, that doesn't really matter when the flop is 9TK, and the turn is a jack.

dalecooper

08-09-2005, 07:59 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

Dale, are you aggressive post flop as well? I play a little more conservative preflop but am very aggressive post flop.

In a 6-max game or later in a tournament I would consider myself highly aggressive both pre-flop and post-flop. My style changes a lot to suit the competition and the game I'm in, but when circumstances are right I'll always have my chips in the pot first. That includes very aggressive play in situations where a lot of players would check/call or deploy "free card bets" - i.e. flush draws + another draw (gutshot or straight); flush draw + a pair; flush draw + two overcards; etc. I also like to play some hands hard and fast that other players wouldn't, for example, any two pair or a low set. Rather than slowplay I'll just fast-play and hope the other guy thinks it's a bluff. With short stacks I am always hyper-aggressive, trying to get them all in as quickly as possible any time I think I have them beat. That's basically my style at 6-max.

You're probably right about it being short if we played heads up, but then again maybe not. A lot of my aggressive play is based on reads, so against a quality opponent I'll scale it back and spend more time probing around for information. I'm also not as aggressive in freezeouts (particularly with low blinds) because pushing slight edges doesn't make as much financial sense as it does in a cash game. For instance let's say you and I played heads up, freezeout format, five times for the same amount of money; and each time on a very early hand, I was pretty certain I had a coinflip against you; and each time you had just gone all in. And finally, I think I'm a lot better than you as a player, and the blinds are still very low. I'm not calling all those coinflips because there's no reason to do so. I think I can beat you a larger percentage of the time by not gambling. Even if I think i have a 55-45 edge (low pockets vs. overcards) I may not call, because I make more money by trying to beat you on the quality of my post-flop play, not by racing 5 times for all the money. ...But if it was the same type of hands in cash games, and I knew I was a 55-45 favorite every time, I'm always going to call.

Seabass

08-09-2005, 08:41 PM

#15 (permalink)

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No, I dont like to push with jacks without a very solid read.

Reason for not pushing is that vs players who usualy calls a push, JJ either has a small edge (like AK) or no edge (AA). However, this might not be true at NL25. (as shown in this hand)

PokerPatNEU

08-09-2005, 11:20 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

You wouldn't want to get JJ all in pre flop against KQ in a cash game? It's a coinflip, but its still a slight 53ish% favorite...if you are playing in your bank roll this is profitable in the long run if you have a solid read that its overs. At these limits a lot of the time you will even see AJ, AT, hell even KJ and dominate them. Look what these two other guys went all in with...KQs and A8s. At shorthanded 25NL if you can get JJ all in pre flop against 1 opp its definitely +EV.

Edit: Sigh, didn't even read all the other posts after that one

ignore this post :P

Miffed22001

08-11-2005, 02:27 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Ugh
Kamikaze jack play.
Play JJ as you would AQ imo.
dont raise utg, maybe mp and definatly lp.
If the flop is under cards bet it hard see who doesnt believe you have a good hand. If its overcards then rep whateva is there. Probably you have to have a bit of balls and bet the turn as well as the flop (i'd recomend a pot bet, insinuate you dont want messing with) but really your strategy of rep-ing the overcards has to be the same as if you miss with othr hands such as AQ or AK.
If the opp isnt going to fold his aces kings or queens, then just dump. But personally i think you should be able to rep enough overcards to make it profitable, just know when you are beat.
Just make sure you limp from ep for a set or over pair.
Dont push when overcards appear thats a waste. Rep them, if noone belives then oh well next hand

EurekaKid

08-14-2005, 01:49 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Easy fold on the flop, but maybe shoulda been folding before it.

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