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Harry
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11-22-2006, 01:37 AM
Post subject: Do you c-bet here?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philly
Posts: 722
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Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $122.90
Hero: $83.50
Button: $50
SB: $69.65
BB: $48
Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with Q K
UTG calls, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.
Flop: A 9 4 ($7.75, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.
Turn: J ($7.75, 3 players)
BB bets $5.5, UTG folds, Hero folds.
Villains are tags. I c-bet almost every flop in position, but I didn't think c-betting here vs two tags was +EV. Do you c-bet this flop?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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In position after raising preflop, yes.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Id rather cbet tags than loose-passive players, but no, I usually dont cbet here. Also, I would typically rather cbet OOP than in position.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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dont see why not!
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Id rather cbet tags than loose-passive players, but no, I usually dont cbet here. Also, I would typically rather cbet OOP than in position.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Id rather cbet tags than loose-passive players, but no, I usually dont cbet here. Also, I would typically rather cbet OOP than in position.
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since a cbet is usually a bluff you can give up more easily after it doesnt work OOP
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i don't think checking is bad at these stakes. Betting is thin, if at all plus ev
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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checking isnt bad but betting is better
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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The right answer, it depends. Sometimes bet, sometimes check. This is not a standard play hand/board combo.
I typically cbet, unless I've been cbetting a lot, then checking is good.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Murphy's Law:If you sometimes bet it will be wrong when you bet. If you sometimes check you will be wrong when you check.
I think it is better to always bet here.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
I think it is better to always bet here.
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I think it's best to often bet here but sometimes check.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i agree that i would rather c-bet here against 2 TAggs than 2 loose passives. I c-bet this 90% of the time.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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POT IT! i cbet ANY ragged A...when i am the pf raiser and i have 1-2 villains, especially TAGs. they will let you know if they have the A, at this level, most of the time.
however, i dont fire the 2nd barrel UI.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Always Rep that Ace until proven wrong.
Think game situation, not just this isolated hand. The marginal +/- EV of this situation is made up for later when you get CR'd with a real hand because the TAGs don't believe your aggression to be made hands any longer. It may not pay immediate dividends, but it is good for table image.
When faced with a marginal EV situation, I usually err to the side of aggression for the aforementioned reason.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I have found that a check on the flop from most of my opponents at £50NL translates into a check-raise after I c-bet, to the point where I must be looking like a really shitty player, constantly repping hands and then folding to any aggression. So I've cut right back on my c-bets as a result and it's confused the hell out of my play.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
Always Rep that Ace until proven wrong.
Think game situation, not just this isolated hand. The marginal +/- EV of this situation is made up for later when you get CR'd with a real hand because the TAGs don't believe your aggression to be made hands any longer. It may not pay immediate dividends, but it is good for table image.
When faced with a marginal EV situation, I usually err to the side of aggression for the aforementioned reason.
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so, you are saying you will still rep the A when you have a 2 flush flop and 4 villains limped into the pot?
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
I have found that a check on the flop from most of my opponents at £50NL translates into a check-raise after I c-bet, to the point where I must be looking like a really shitty player, constantly repping hands and then folding to any aggression. So I've cut right back on my c-bets as a result and it's confused the hell out of my play.
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If you believe in the monsters under the bed, they might as well exist.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I wouldn't cbet here on fulltilt (or, in general, I would only do it on occasion in this situation, not always). Like biondino said, you're getting check/raised there very often by people who don't believe you, or have the ace and "slowplayed" it.
Also, I have this reasoning.. many people call with any ace in their hand.. so if the ace flops and you don't have it, chances are good one of the others do..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
so, you are saying you will still rep the A when you have a 2 flush flop and 4 villains limped into the pot?
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Nah, then I would fire 2 barrels on a clean turn. Just Kidding.
Don't be so literal bro.
JackVance, I want people trying to raise me off my c-bet when I pre-flop raise. When I have it, I make a lot more money.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
JackVance, I want people trying to raise me off my c-bet when I pre-flop raise. When I have it, I make a lot more money.
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Then fulltilt is the place to be
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
I wouldn't cbet here on fulltilt (or, in general, I would only do it on occasion in this situation, not always). Like biondino said, you're getting check/raised there very often by people who don't believe you, or have the ace and "slowplayed" it.
Also, I have this reasoning.. many people call with any ace in their hand.. so if the ace flops and you don't have it, chances are good one of the others do.. |
i dont like this reasoning at all. If i am the PF raiser and its checked to me, im c-betting any board like this. You have to remember that a good % of the time, the 2 villains are just as scared of the A as you are, and thats why they check it to you. if you bet and get c/raised, so be it, its easy to get away from.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
JackVance, I want people trying to raise me off my c-bet when I pre-flop raise. When I have it, I make a lot more money.
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QFT
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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lol
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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harry,
your best bet here is to randomize your play, while taking into account what you think these guys have based on their preflop call and how they play postflop. For example, if UTG is limp/calling any 2 cards that look pretty, and BB is your average nitty/tagg that is calling with a low or mid/pair looking for set, this will probably be a good spot to fire a cbet. Try to vary the size of that cbet up too. If these players are the types that might look you up once but fold to a second barrel without AQ/AK or better, it might be a good spot to cbet with the intention of firing any turn when checked to. If UTG loves to min/raise your cbets or call down with a weak ace, just check behind.
There's nothing wrong with how this hand was played.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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another thing to consider is that just because you check behind on the flop, doesn't mean you are necessarily giving up the pot. That said, nobody ever seems to give you credit for hands like AT/JJ if you show resistance on the turn, although both hands should certainly still be in your range sometimes.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bode-ist
I dont like this reasoning at all. If i am the PF raiser and its checked to me, im c-betting any board like this. You have to remember that a good % of the time, the 2 villains are just as scared of the A as you are, and thats why they check it to you. if you bet and get c/raised, so be it, its easy to get away from.
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Keep in mind that what I said is site-related. It would be different on say, prima, where you only get c/r when they have a set or something, which makes it all very straight-forward. On fulltilt however, in my experience, you get constantly raised off of your hands with made hands, draws, air etc.. it's very frustrating.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I think people should try playing the players that are in the pot and not base their play on the site they are on. Stereotyping how an entire online poker site plays is kinda ridiculous IMO.
btw, jack, you kill anybody lately? 
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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jack, while FT may be more aggressive (and I'm not sure if that's just perception or reality, but it sure seems that way at 100 & 200 nl sometimes), that's still no reason to play weak tight. Lukie's right, there's nothing wrong with this hand as played, but I still take down plenty of pots with late position c-bets in spots just like this, more than enough to make up for the c-bets I have to give up to a check-raise. There are plenty of tight-passive tables on FT as well...
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I don't think it's ridiculous.. it's the same as how we all stereotype over a certain limit (like, "at lower limits this could be anything so just call" etc).. it's not a golden rule and there's differences in players ofcourse, but when you notice every time you play there everyone tends to play a certain way, then what is wrong with stereotyping that?
I've only played 3 sites so far and they all played distinctly different and required a different approach to beat them. Prima is mostly loose passive, titan mostly weak/tight and FT very postflop aggressive.
(and eh, thank god TW is finally over.. I was actually HAPPY when they started attacking me so I could quit lol)
Btw aren't we straying from the point a bit too? If I look up I was merely saying that if an ace flops and you don't have it, the chances are higher that one of the others has it as opposed to when, say, a king flops.. for the sole reason that people tend to want to see a flop with Ax. Is this really bad reasoning?
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Id rather cbet tags than loose-passive players, but no, I usually dont cbet here. Also, I would typically rather cbet OOP than in position.
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since a cbet is usually a bluff you can give up more easily after it doesnt work OOP |
eh wtf? Youre telling me in a 3 way flop pot where you are going to cbet, you would rather do it first to act then on the button after you've seen two checks?
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Id rather cbet tags than loose-passive players, but no, I usually dont cbet here. Also, I would typically rather cbet OOP than in position.
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since a cbet is usually a bluff you can give up more easily after it doesnt work OOP |
I don't get this reasoning at all, are you saying you can't resist firing the turn if they check again in position? Clearly betting in position is better than OOP, mostly because two people have shown weakness and also you will very often get to see two cards when they check the turn.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
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Yeah wow good point aislephive!!
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
I wouldn't cbet here on fulltilt (or, in general, I would only do it on occasion in this situation, not always). Like biondino said, you're getting check/raised there very often by people who don't believe you, or have the ace and "slowplayed" it.
Also, I have this reasoning.. many people call with any ace in their hand.. so if the ace flops and you don't have it, chances are good one of the others do.. |
in a multi-way pot, yes. but in a HU pot, i cbet my arse off until i get raised off. no way A3o can continue to call down psb's, and if he does, i got his stack when i catch sets, 2pair, and the like...especially on FT.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
in a multi-way pot, yes. but in a HU pot, i cbet my arse off until i get raised off. no way A3o can continue to call down psb's, and if he does, i got his stack when i catch sets, 2pair, and the like...especially on FT.
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This wasn't a HU pot.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i understand that, but the answer was aimed at both situations anyway.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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