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Do good players fold this?

  
 
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JL
Old 03-02-2007, 05:46 PM     Post subject: Do good players fold this? #1 (permalink)  
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 No reads.

He is basically playing his hand face up here. It seems so obvious he has a flush. If he has a lower flush I don't think he's pushing the river.

What am I beating here?

Texas Hold'em $4-$8 NL (real money), hand #1,949,487,435
Table Reno, 2 Mar 2007 12:23 AM ET

Seat 2: sobraondas ($1,675.60 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero [ KD,3D ] ($398.40 in chips)
Seat 5: SmokyRiver ($411.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Odlaris ($428.50 in chips)
Seat 8: pokerded ($490.40 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
sobraondas posts blind ($2), Hero posts blind ($4).

PRE-FLOP
SmokyRiver calls $4, Odlaris folds, pokerded folds, sobraondas calls $2, Hero checks.

FLOP [board cards 8D,2D,QD ]
sobraondas checks, Hero bets $12, SmokyRiver calls $12, sobraondas calls $12.

TURN [board cards 8D,2D,QD,5C ]
sobraondas checks, Hero bets $39, SmokyRiver calls $39, sobraondas folds.

RIVER [board cards 8D,2D,QD,5C,KH ]
Hero bets $80, SmokyRiver bets $356 and is all-in, Hero ????
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-02-2007, 06:26 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Any other reads? Is opp very good or nitty or something else? What's your feel of him?

There's no way opp puts you on a high flush so there's absolutely no way you can fold this. Also, there is a big possibility this guy has a set or a lower flush (he limped pre). Also, the fact that he limped UTG, he would have to be really bad to have an A high flush here, which would be more reason to call.

lol don't be result oriented.
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JL
Old 03-02-2007, 06:44 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 No, I dont have any reads at all; he just sat down.

Because of that fact, I guess I have to call here everytime?

It's just that I dont see a lower flush/set pushing here.
I see one of those raising the turn.
To me it seems he is slowplaying something...

Anyways, it's good to know that most people go broke here without much stress.
Come to think of it, I don't even think I would be posting this hand if it was from NL200...it's just that $400 is a lot of money to me
I'll get used to it eventually.
I just need a little reassurance once in a while.
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seoul_child1
Old 03-02-2007, 06:51 PM #4 (permalink)  
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CALL.. nh sir and/or re-load.. nothing you can do!
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-02-2007, 06:52 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 KdKx comes to mind if he's a donk, but also JTs and a few others. This guys a donk for playing a flush like this anyway so its just as likely he has a lower one than a higher one.
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zook
Old 03-02-2007, 07:01 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
KdKx comes to mind if he's a donk and hero doesn't hold Kd
FYP. I'm calling, but it is hard to imagine anything you're beating besides a crazy bluff.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-02-2007, 07:32 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
KdKx comes to mind if he's a donk and hero doesn't hold Kd
FYP. I'm calling, but it is hard to imagine anything you're beating besides a crazy bluff.
\

lol right.
Zook I think this is a bluff a decent amount, and if your donkish enough to play an A high flush this way, ur donkish enough to play a lower one this way.
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Genitruc
Old 03-02-2007, 07:47 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 I need a sick, sick, sick read to fold this (i.e. villain is super-nitty postflop and likes to slowplay).
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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griffey24
Old 03-02-2007, 08:04 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 I think is posssssssible to lay this one down to a tight/nit. You have the Kd, Qd is on the board, and its hard to see any nit pushing a J high flush in this spot after this much aggression from hero.

That being said, I can't ever fold this, so nh and reeeeload!

But in general, what is the worst flush people are calling with here? If the Qd wasn't on board and we had the Q high flush, should we call?
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zook
Old 03-02-2007, 08:04 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Why is this a donkish way to play it? It looks like a bluff, so I think more than just the 2nd nuts calls here. How would you play it as villian ISF?
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Genitruc
Old 03-02-2007, 08:10 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Genitruc is an unknown quantity at this point
 I would raise either the flop or the turn if I was villain and had flopped nut flush.

I'd do this mainly to ensure I didn't get my action crushed vs lower flushes and sets/2 pairs if 4th diamond hit turn/river.

Also to balance with other bluffs/semi-bluffs.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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cjs55
Old 03-02-2007, 11:11 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I just couldn't ever fold this. Even if he was a nit. I could easily see JdTd here, or hell, even something crazy like the ace of diamonds that missed his draw.
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Galapogos
Old 03-02-2007, 11:17 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Why does everyone think this could be a bluff? And in position this is how I sometimes play the nut flush if the mood should strike me.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I could lay this down but I'm a bit of a station on the river.

However, a set would be stupid to push this river. This is the worst bluff ever. And even on Ongame (where I believe this hand took place) guys generally do not overvalue their lower flushes this much. If you have a read that this guy is not a total retard I don't think a fold is bad at all. But I could never fault you for calling this with the second nuts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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cjs55
Old 03-02-2007, 11:26 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Yeah, a set's not possible here by any decent player.

Still think Ad missed flush could be possible though. I guess I don't see how much strength has hero shown here? He 3 bet, but since there were no re-raises that could just mean set/2 pair, or real low flush, a hand that's gonna get mucked. Or am I totally wrong about that and the 3-bet here really does indicate a flush, period, here.
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Galapogos
Old 03-02-2007, 11:32 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjs55
I guess I don't see how much strength has hero shown here? He 3 bet, but since there were no re-raises that could just mean set/2 pair, a hand that's gonna get mucked. Or am I totally wrong about that and the 3-bet here really does indicate a flush, period, here.
Yeah the hero's bets could mean any of these things. But this is also how the hero would play the nut flush. If hero has no reads on villian it also goes vice versa. And this is an insane bluff to make against an unknown. Plus I think 2 pairs (and sometimes sets) go for a c/c river line.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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