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Discussion on Calling: When is it good?

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CavemanWins

06-12-2006, 01:11 AM Post subject: Discussion on Calling: When is it good?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Atlanta, Ga USA

Posts: 68

It seems people are always writing about what to raise Preflop, when to push, and C-Betting.

What about calling? When can it be advantageous to call? I assume since most people reading/writing in this forum are NL players. Being aggressive gives you two ways to win; The other guy folds or you have better cards. Calling only gives you one way to win. But the inplied odds for hitting a good hand in NL could give you more money then raising right?

What do people call with instead of raising? For PF, Flop, Turn, and River? And Why?

Aren't there situations or strategies that use calling to increase EV? I have played at the same table with a certain individual several times who can be aggressive post flop (Turn and River), but is a big caller to the flop and on the flop. Three times I have seen this person take 400-500 BB from the table. I play at Paradise at the 10$ tables, and they are 5-handed.

His general style is thus:
(Stats are: VPIP: 50.87 PF: 3.04)
(Aggression

( Flop: 1.34)
( Turn: 2.32)
( River: 4.57)
( Total: 2.05)
Hardly ever raise PF. Call PF raises more (The hands he has shown indicate strong hands for calling, OR low suited conectors and one-gappers. any PP as well). When he flops middle pair or low pair, he calls any 1/2 to 3/4 pot sized bet to the turn. When he hits his two pair, he raises the turn. Big. Usualy overbetting the pot, and guess what? People Call! He has a tendency (it seems) to slow play even bigger hands to the turn and or river. When he hits big, he tends to destack people. He is calling alot to the flop, and on the flop, but gets aggressive on the turn or the river when he makes a good hand. He also releases hands at the right time.

What do you all think of this style? Or do you think he has just gotten lucky the 2 or three times?

--Caveman

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Miffed22001

06-12-2006, 02:20 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

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Posts: 8,181

calling ? Never

I only call with a strong hand where the call will allow a bad player to overcall with wateva he has. Otherwise im raising/folding

gabe

06-12-2006, 04:29 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

calling ? Never

lol
think harder miffed..

Awaji E

06-12-2006, 04:50 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Japan

Posts: 61

I know that if I think I'm ahead, I'll usually keep betting until my opponent gives me reason to think otherwise, so an observant opponent could use that against me calling me down with something like 2-pair against my TPTK.

But I think your question is more about calling a pre-flop raise. I think you can use your implied odds to make some "bad" calls preflop, but you've gotten know when to let go, and how to get paid when you hit. Just make sure your cards aren't likely to be domitated. So calling with a low suited-connector would be better that, say, K-J. But I'm still learning how to make money doing that, so more comments would be appriciated.

jackvance

06-12-2006, 11:53 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Calling is underrated imo. If you call because you have no clue what you should do, then it's bad. And you should play a "raise or fold" game for a while.. and then you'll start to notice that this isn't all that great either, and calling is appropriate in many situations too.

Basically, sometimes you just want to control the pot size, so you don't want to raise. It can also serve to disguise your hand. You have TP and bet, I call. What do I have? A draw? A weaker pair? A monster trying to let you build a pot without showing my real hand strength yet? Ofcourse this is all situational. If your opponents are passive then calling sucks. If they are aggressive then it can be good imo.

Rondavu

06-12-2006, 01:56 PM

#6 (permalink)

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-Call when you're floating
-Call when you have a hand, and an opponent has the tendancy to make large bluffs on late streets. In this case it's ok to let an opponent draw out, because you get so much value when they don't.
-Call against tougher players when a draw exists, but you flopped hard and don't believe they have a draw. If a blank hits the turn a tough player will make an odds busting bet or often catch a pair.

Calling should be part of your arsenal. The key is calling when you're strong and weak sometimes to validate your floats.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

ihategnomes

06-12-2006, 02:21 PM

#7 (permalink)

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ihategnomes

06-12-2006, 02:21 PM

#8 (permalink)

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call preflop more when your at at table of loose passives. There is nothing wrong taking more flops with players that will let you and will pay you off when you hit hard.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
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<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

dalecooper

06-12-2006, 02:44 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Caveman - that guy's style is fine and probably profitable for the fishiest low stakes games, but as a general tactic I wouldn't encourage it. Better players are going to bet when they're ahead of you and fold when you suck out & play back at them hard like he does; and as you move up in stakes you're going to be in more games with better players. Or at least, tighter players. As a general approach to poker I can't really endorse it.

However, I do find a lot of room for calling. I call a lot in position on the flop (what is referred to as floating) against standard TAgg players to see if they slow down on a later street and give me a stealing opportunity. I call a lot in and out of position against smart, yet hyper-aggressive players, because they tend to keep hammering at pots as long as no one raises them - I get more money out of them by playing like a calling station whenever I have anything decent. I call a lot pre-flop in loose, fishy games when I have hands with potential and I know raising won't thin the field, and c-bets on the flop would get called most of the time anyway. And I call to control pot size and to get information - for instance on a hand where I raised with QJ and flopped a pair of queens, and then someone bet into me on the flop with no obvious draws out there. In that kind of situation I think my hand may be good, but I'm not that interested in defining my hand quickly or playing a big pot in a questionable situation; I just like to call, see if I can slow them down and get a cheap showdown. I'm more likely to raise or fold the turn depending on how they respond to my first call.

Lukie

06-12-2006, 04:11 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

calling ? Never

I only call with a strong hand where the call will allow a bad player to overcall with wateva he has. Otherwise im raising/folding

come on man

I agree that in the majority of cases in NL, raising or folding are usually better options then calling, but that's just bad.

CavemanWins

06-12-2006, 09:18 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Atlanta, Ga USA

Posts: 68

This really turned into alot of good replies. I do agree with Miff stating:

Quote:

calling? Never

However I liked the post(s) by Dalecooper (and others):

Quote:

...As a general approach to poker I can't really endorse it.
However, I do find a lot of room for calling. ...

I would rather be betting/raising or folding with Tight play, but perhaps I do not Call enough Preflop and Flop. I have not seen many posts about "calling" strategies, everything written seems to guide me on a "bet it, raise, or fold it" doctrine. I think I am missing out by not understanding the game theories dealing with calling.

What are hands that can typicaly be called preflop? (Per Position, no raise in front). Say, connectors unsuited? One gappers suited or otherwise? I would be curious to know if anyone actualy has a formal "Call" strategy like they do a Bet/Raise strategy.

Thanks all!
Caveman

dalecooper

06-12-2006, 09:55 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Caveman -

The main endorsement for always raising, never calling, is that old saw that it gives you two ways to win. Which is true - but not every action in poker is intended to win the pot right now. That's the simplistic, and may I say, somewhat over-aggressive way of looking at things. Any time I do anything in poker, I may have a number of reasons for doing it:

1. Win the pot (by folding out my opponents' better hands)
2. Win the pot (by showing down a good hand - therefore I'd probably prefer a call)
3. Get information (defining others' hands, and how strongly they feel about them; also how they react to coordinated boards)
4. Control pot size (either by inflating it when my hand is strong, or keeping it smaller when my hand has questionable EV)
5. Get more value out of an opponent (who I think would just fold if I bet or raised now, but might bet or call later if I slowplay one street)
6. Meta-game considerations (set up a general table image, or set up a specific play that I would like to make later)
7. Set up a believable line in case I decide to bluff later in the hand

Betting and raising are great for 1 and 2, and those are certainly the key elements in poker, no doubt. But 2-7 combined can have just as much impact on your bottom line. I always try to remind myself when I'm betting in a decent-sized pot that I have a number of motives with every bet, and my goal is to combine as many of those into one ideal action as possible. Luckily, betting and raising are often all you need. But calling and checking (and even very occasionally folding) are involved too.

About your question about a calling range, I think most players have one. No matter what people say around here, few of us are aggro enough to raise every hand we enter a pot with. In 6-max I tend to limp smaller pairs and suited connectors in early position, especially at weaker, more passive tables; I raise with those same hands in late position at the same tables, or any other ones. In fact I don't limp too much in late position unless a lot of others have already limped and I feel that a raise won't thin the herd. I also very occasionally limp a good hand in early position as a change-up, and I am more liable to do this in aggressive games than loose/passive ones. AA/KK/QQ/AK are all candidates. It's kind of funny when you limp-call AA from UTG and destack the LAgg who raised, and then he gets mad at you and calls you a fish for not raising (this happened last time I limped AA, and it was the first time I had limped AA in probably 3000 hands). But you have to be careful in those situations and remember that you are opening the door for your opponents to have any sort of hand, or worse to end up in a big multi-way pot with several opponents with random hands. In other words, you have to be prepared to throw those aces away sometimes when things don't go your way.

dsaxton

06-12-2006, 10:51 PM

#13 (permalink)

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The specious argument "raising gives you two ways to win," sounds good, but I don't think it really holds up. For example, when you're holding a hand for which a worse hand will never call a raise or bet, then a bet or raise doesn't have the advantage of allowing you to "win two ways." It only wins one way: when your opponent folds, since otherwise your opponent calls and you lose.

I honestly don't think there's much value in talking about "calling in general." It's a good decision in some situations, and not in others, and for varying reasons in each case.

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